Sunday, January 27, 2013
Reader Comment: Game only works if she's only interested, and then you don't need game anymore
Some days ago this anonymous post appeared in the comment section of "There is no Point in Pretending". I'll reproduce it here in full since it deserves broad attention.
This is extremely interesting, Alek and Aaron, and it rejoins a thought I had a while back, when a local PUA of my country was talking about the night where he approached two hot girls, and one of them warmed up while the other one remained cold. I remember thinking that if he got two different reactions from girls while saying the exact same thing and being the exact same dude, it obviously meant that their reactions had nothing to do with him or what he said, but came from whether they instantly liked him or not.
Isn’t it ironic that PUAs teach you to Game girls that you don’t know? Think about it: in a non-social circle environment, there are only two reasons for a girl to see you again after an initial encounter:
-She is interested in you.
-She is super social (in that case, there is a good chance you will actually never see her again even though you had a good interaction with her: she was just being her super social self).
Now here is where it gets funny: PUAs say that girls always assume that a stranger who comes to talk to them is hitting on them, which is only logical. That means that, whatever you tell her (and NO, going “indirect” does not fool anyone), she is deciding whether or not she is interested. And that’s the kicker: for her to react positively to your approach, for her to start talking eagerly to you, she needs to be very social or to be interested, and this interest, as correctly pointed out by Alek, will stem from non-short-term fakable things, basically your style and looks. In order to spit your nonsensical game, you need her to want to listen to you in the first place, either because that’s her way of being or because she already likes you.
The funny thing is that PUAs do sense that some girls are initially more responsive than others, but, because of their deluded view of the world, they think that if the girls is non-responsive, it’s because they weren’t “alpha/unstiffled/detached/in the Now/etc” and therefore they need to stay with her and try to “plow” and persist as much as possible until she warms up. They also account for initially warm girls by the fact that they sensed their alphaness or whatever before they opened their mouth.
It is just crazy the extent to which these guys can go to avoid seeing the obvious. When you do Game on a girl, she has to be willing to listen for you to demonstrate your attractive qualities. And if she is willing to listen, she is interested already, by definition
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Question: What if a girl did not initially like me, but after hanging out with me (because she had too) she became attracted to me and we hooked up? This happened to me nd I did not suddenly have more social status or better looks or more money.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that she wasn't merely masking her insecurities by being bitchy towards you? You know, girls sometimes do that.
DeletePersonality plays a big role in the long run. This is a fact of life. You don't need particular status, looks, and money to get propper girl because there is also emotional value and by that I mean feelining of understanding and great mutual vibe. However this is something that rarely happens through cold approaching, because a girl and a guy must open themselves on the spot to make this possible, and people don't do that very often. This is however basis of nice guy game and orbiters aim to make it work, but it rarely happens, and you will be better of looking for ones interested almost right from the begginig. I think it is better for self-esteem because you not trying to convince anybody to do anything, and if it happens by accident good for you.
DeletePUA is mostly designed to avoid the obvious, hinder the easy, and create problems where none need to exist (whether they did this on purpose to set guys back by decades... I can't say).
Delete"How do you know that she wasn't merely masking her insecurities by being bitchy towards you? You know, girls sometimes do that."
To add to what Aaron said, many girls who are initially interested will go on the defensive when faced by the social awkwardness of a guy who is obviously using some sort of persuasive tactics to get in her pants (trust me, no matter how smooth you think you are, she knows exactly why you are talking to her).
Using PUA - or really anything to try to persuade and convince a girl to like you when she isn't initially attracted - will CAUSE resistance in most normal girls who are actually into you (read: you don't need game because she is interested). They will give reactions that look like disinterest because that is what PUA's elicit from them. When guys stop trying to persuade and convince women to like them and simply focus on identifying women who they initially share chemistry with, that unnatural resistance disappears. Women start becoming extremely cooperative and easy to understand, by their own choice.
This is something that has made PUA's I've known very uncomfortable. (They'll tell me, "it feels too easy. I want a challenge!" Meanwhile I'm in happier relationships with much better women, looks and personality/attitude.)
At the same time, I've also found that many PUA's will overlook her initial interest and focus on the barriers (they call them shit-tests, things which don't exist in real life) so that they get a bigger ego boost if they "get her". In most cases, if the guy had come out with a bit of honesty of straightforwardness in the first place (or with a bit of social awareness) he could see it.
On the flip side, many girls will "hookup" (don't know what you meant by that) or have sex with with guys that aren't all that attracted to. Lots of reasons, none of which have to do with "game". Self-esteem issues, attention, validation, status, etc.
@Sleazy - You've had some excellent observations in your blog lately. Props for being on the right path. You're right, these realizations completely discredit the PUA way of thinking.
Here is a fun experiment for anyone with the wherewithal to look: Check out the PUA "success" field reports. You know, the ones that they brag about how PUA works and how their game is awesome. They almost always include something along the lines of:
- "She was keen."
- "She seemed into me."
- "She was she asked me questions."
- "She was laughing."
These are all signs (that the guy missed) that the girl was into him and that all of his pickup artistry that followed was irrelevant and unnecessary. Look for the signs in their field reports. It's all right in front of their eyes. This is even true of the reports that I have seen companies and coaches base their entire "get any girl to like you" methods and products on.
-Jack
p.s. @Sleazy - This link is to an article written on my site back in July that I think might interest you with regards to debunking PUA. Feel free to delete the link to it if you don't want your site linking to mine. Totally understandable. It's all good. http://date-masters.com/blog/how-to-pick-up-girls/does-pua-work/
Keep up the good work.
@Jack
Delete"Using PUA - or really anything to try to persuade and convince a girl to like you when she isn't initially attracted - will CAUSE resistance in most normal girls who are actually into you (read: you don't need game because she is interested). They will give reactions that look like disinterest because that is what PUA's elicit from them. When guys stop trying to persuade and convince women to like them and simply focus on identifying women who they initially share chemistry with, that unnatural resistance disappears. Women start becoming extremely cooperative and easy to understand, by their own choice. "
That is so fucking true man.
Thanks for featuring this in front page Aaron! I appreciate it even more since your blog and some of your contributors (mainly Johnny and Alek) have helped me tremendously in realizing what a waste PUA and generic self-development are. Keep up the great work!
ReplyDeleteIt depends on what you mean by game. To me game is just social skills that make you a comfortable person to be around. To be someone a girl would not have serious objections to fucking. Someone easy to talk to. Someone easy to laugh with. That being said, all the girls I have fucked were interested in me from the get go. So they permitted me to escalate on them, isolate them, seduce them and fuck them. If the girl is not interested, no amount of game or social skills will work as she will never give you a chance to display your game. Game comes into play when the girl is interested. Of course if you are talking about game the way mystery defines it, then yes, Game will not help you even if the girl is interested. Chances are it will freak her out.
ReplyDelete" To me game is just social skills that make you a comfortable person to be around. To be someone a girl would not have serious objections to fucking. Someone easy to talk to. Someone easy to laugh with."
ReplyDeleteJust repeating what AlekNovy keeps saying all the time - a discipline is defined not by what it has in common with other disciplines, but by what it does differently.
If you think game is really all about basic social skills, then lets just call it that - basic social skills. Being able to talk to people comfortably, hearing what they have to say, being able to crack a joke every now and then etc.
The reason gamers don't do that is because then it loses it's mystery and aura. "You gotta learn some game bro" has a much better, a more mysterious zing to it than "You gotta learn some basic social skills bro".
Imagine if I start calling getting in good physical shape as "game". Or earning lots of money as "game". What would you think?
This the problem with "game" or people who talk about game or sell it. The only good things contained in any "game" book is only the parts where they
- tell you to hit the gym
- wear good clothes
- take care of basic personal hygiene
- go out talk to people and make some friends, instead of sitting at home
- move things forward when it seems a woman likes you
That's it! There is no mystical force or super secret ninja things about it.
Agreed. Game is just a fancy term for decent social skills.
DeleteThe thing is, as Alek pointed out, that "Game", as any "field of study" (my fingers are puking as I type this) is defined by what separates it from other things such as normal social skills, otherwise, Game doesn't exist and there is only normal social skills, which are very easy and fast to acquire provided you do not have mental roadblocks. If you define "Game" by normal social skills, then yeah it's useful. But Game as presented by the community is not that at all: it's an array of techniques supposed to create feelings in other people around you and manipulate them into doing what you want when you want, not just being cool with yourself. Game here is defined the way the community defines it. Other than that, I agree with what you say.
ReplyDeleteYup. She is either ON or she is OFF. Right from the beginning.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't about doing the RIGHT things. It's about NOT doing the WRONG things.
Improving your looks and logistics is the basic first step. Then hitting on girls and screening for the RECEPTIVE/DTF ones.
What really made me realize this was GoodLookingLoser's screening mentality post. Check it out here:
www.goodlookingloser.com/2012/04/21/screening-game
Lets assume that man has done all the "game" that he actually can do... Which means going to gym and having some muscles with low bf %, having great sense of style, perfect hair cut for him, great personal hygiene, good emotional intelligence, easily can start conversation anywhere with anyone, enough money to support his lifestyle, good logistics... etc.
ReplyDeleteWhen you start normal small talk with girl she is going to know you are interested.. If girl is not interested or is playing hard to get you should move on immediately since it's probably waste of your time.
If girl is interested you bring her to your place or go to her place.
If you meet her at daytime after small talk why would you ask for her phone number? If logistics work bring her to your place immediately. If that isn't possible..
Should you take girls number? It's very bad ROI.. You have to call all the numbers try to set up dates etc.
If you get good at "game" read the definition in the beginning of this post...
What results you are going to get if you have perfect "game"?
100 approaches, 30 numbers, 10 dates, 3 lays.
If you are average guy your results will be much much lousier.
What is best to do is only give your contact information to girl and never call them. It's much less headache and brings same results when you have "perfect game". So you give 30 contact information like your fb optimized for making perfect image to girls. You are going to have sex with 3 of them and only deal with girls who were interested in you.