The manosphere is obsessed with many things, most of them entirely imaginary. One of the strongest collective delusions in that corner of the Internet is the belief that right where you live, the women suck, but that somewhere else they literally throw themselves at you just because you happen to have a pulse. It's the myth of the pussy paradise, namely that in some other place the women will literally throw themselves at any (foreign) man.
Roosh V himself is a prime example. I don't want to bash the poor guy this time, but instead talk about the people on his forum. They think that it's only the fault of the women in their area if they get rejected over and over. This must be the case because their idol Roosh V himself says that the women in [insert random country] suck. Salvation is to be found elsewhere, so Roosh travels all over the world, and doesn't really get anywhere with girls, and his forum members aspire to be like him. They don't get laid at home either but believe that in some faraway land things will be much different.
On Roosh's forum you'll find thread after thread after thread were those guys are wondering where in the world the women are beautiful and willing, and which country they should take a vacation in. At the moment, though, they are panicking because the EU plans to crack down on sex tourism.
Let's just be blunt and say it like it is: yes, in some unfortunate circumstances your environment can severely hinder your chances with women, simply because there aren't enough around. Just look at demographics. For instance, in the US there is a surplus of women on the East Coast, while there is an enormous surplus of men on the West Coast. You may have seen this map from National Geographic before:
I hear relatively frequently from guys in the Bay Area who complain about a dearth of women. Given the demographics, especially if you working in the technology sector, this is not an illusion. It simply boils down to a trade-off. Yes, career prospects may be better in a technology hub, but you may also limit your life in other areas. Presumably, you wouldn't want to spent your entire life working on an oil rig either. The money is good, though, so I can understand the motivation.
However, in most places there are enough single men and single women out there, and meeting someone new shouldn't be a challenge. Of course, it's necessary to take a realistic look at yourself, and that's the kind of advice many women should take to heart as well. If you don't get anywhere with women in your city, it's most likely not the fault of the women. With the exception of sex tourism hotspots, it won't get easier abroad. This is especially true if you think you can spend a week in, say, Norway or Denmark, and find your future bride there.
Sex tourism is based on economic inequality. There is a good reason why there are Russian mail-order brides, but not Swedish or Norwegian ones. The latter countries are highly developed, and you as a foreigner will most likely have a lower economic status. Please don't cite skewed GDP per capita figures now. Those figures are high for the US as well, but the average American is much worse off than the average Dane or Swede. So, simply being from the US won't quite cut it there.
Sure, you can look "exotic" abroad, which is a benefit of some races, but not all. In general, though, you will do as well or badly abroad than you'll do at home. As a sex tourist or a regular tourist in a sex tourism hotspot, though, people will only view you as a walking wallet --- if stories from people living in Thailand are to be believed. If getting laid in a third-world country is your goal, dear manosphere members, then please don't kid yourself that the women are easier or whatnot. You're simply paying for a service. In countries of a comparable standard of living, you will probably do worse because a local girl doesn't have much to gain by picking a random foreigner over a local guy. Inter-racial and inter-cultural marriages are still an exception, so please discount any anecdotal evidence. Lastly, in countries in which the standard of living is higher than in your home countries, you will fight a severe uphill battle. Ask Roosh how well he has done in Denmark and Sweden, for instance.
So, where is the pussy paradise, then? Well, if you discount sex tourism, then there is none, but if you are a (potential) sex tourist, then you're simply buying the women, which you could do basically anywhere else as well. Even right where you live.
Jesus, enough with this "Roosh doesn't get laid" crap.
ReplyDeleteJust take a look at Roosh, if he were a woman he would be a 3.5, maybe a 4 because he is tall.
Him, being able to bang this many girls, and capture this many flags is an exploit in itself. Fuck, him scoring higher than a 6.5 is an exploit.
Cause yeah, when a guy talks about his successes and failures in such a detailed manner, I chose to believe him, even if he didn't make sextapes. Pointing fingers without proofs is ridiculous, I could go on and say this whole site is a joke of jealous beta males who don't get laid at all. Big deal.
The problem with Roosh is that he advocates his vision of a real man who should be able to protect his woman, financially and physically, while at the same time he would be unable to protect his girl financially in any country, because his cashflows are nothing steady and predictable.
What I really don't like about your site aaron is that it just doesn't aknowledge any cultural difference between countries / women.
A pussy paradise is a fantasy, and if it used to exist it was for sad reasons (women having just no choice), yet saying that you will have the exact same return wherever you are is just plain stupid.
If you are short in Scandinavia, good luck getting laid, if you are black in Russia, good luck getting laid.
On the other hand, I am French and in some countries (especially in your beloved USA), girls will bang me because I am French. Not only because I am French, of course, but I will be much more interesting than my american counterpart in her eyes.
If you have an average salary in Scandinavia and an average life, you are already better off than 90% of this planet's population. Why would you stay in Scandinavia and just bang a fair amount of women when you can go to "poorer" countries and enjoy life at it fullest?
This is Roosh philosophy and I don't see why it's worse than that right-thinking content you feed to your readers (who btw, are pretty good at making fun of Roosh's follower while having your dick in their throat).
LaM
Didn't I explicitly mention that being "exotic" does help some races? Thus, you're setting up a straw man when you claim my position was that you'd have the " exact same return wherever you are". If you're an average guy from the US, there is no chance in hell you'll do better in, say, Denmark than at home, and that's the crucial point.
DeleteAlso, while you may get more interest from local girls as a foreigner, this hardly goes beyond a quick hook-up. Your chances of entering a long-term relationships with a local girl are normally much lower.
Lastly, "enjoying life to its fullest" doesn't have to mean traveling to a third-world country and chasing after lower-class girls there. This is yet another straw man.
"If you don't get anywhere with women in your city, it's most likely not the fault of the women.it won't get easier abroad" still sounds pretty much like "the exact same return" to me.
DeleteI also disagree with your LTR point, the cultural gap is a great reason to give it a go, you don't date a Polish girl like you date a Danish girl and just for having this experience it's worth a try, you might end up learning a lot about yourself.
Plus, just for the sake of telling her girlfriends that she is DATING a French guy she won't mind going into a LTR.
Note that results may vary if you come from a shithole like Romania.
Lastly, it might not look interesting to you because you see life through the prism of money. You advocate : "make money, look better, be famous".
I advocate : "have an intersting life", I would much rather have an interesting talk with a freshly fucked beautiful Russian woman in a shithole only Russia can offer than high fiving the bouncer of a fancy club in LA.
If you realise that 90% of guys you would call successful are actually in a giant company sucking some manager's cock on a weekly basis, you will understand that there is more to life than what society tries to shove down our throats since the day we are born.
Henry Miller was a bum his whole life, he probably fucked more women and had more fun than any of us ever will.
Had I meant "the exact same", I would have used those very words. I clearly wrote that the results will be comparable, which means "roughly the same." Arguing over semantics is rather pointless, though. It's the kind of shady rhetorics PUA shills employ as well. Instead, look at the big picture. A significant parts of the manosphere believes that there some pussy paradise somewhere were it is much easier to get laid, but this is nothing but a fantasy.
DeleteOf course you can have a fling with some foreign girl and even date her for some weeks, but, as I mentioned in the article already, it's the exception to the rule. Also, dear stuck-up Frenchie, no girl will fuck or date you just because you are French. Sorry, buddy. BTW, do you actually speak from experience or are you only making this up? In other words: in which other country have you been living besides France to draw the conclusions you make? Of course, banging some exchange student who comes to France on an Erasmus scholarship is the easy part. Try living in Poland and get into a relationship with a local middle-class girl instead.
Lastly, there is much more to life than money. Yet, it is not exactly unimportant when it comes to dating. Don't just look at extremes and caricatures. Doing so is a symptom of intellectual immaturity or dishonesty.
I think people way exaggerate how ugly looking Roosh is. He's an average looking guy who is tall. That should be good enough for most situations if you have your shit together.
Delete-I have a worse looking friend than Roosh who hooked up with four Argentine girls during his month visiting there, and probably spent more his time prioritizing finding coke than women.
-I have worse looking friends than Roosh who clean up in DC with good looking women.
My point is most dating and pick-up situations are idiosyncratic beyond the basics. They depend on your interests, your style, and the type of girls who respond to it. I attack the manosphere not because of how much or how little they get laid, but because of their useless universal "tropes." They seem specifically targeted toward early 20s dudes that are lost, entering the world with little status, and instead of biding their time and building up their own accomplishments and friends, they are promised shortcuts.
Are American girls culturally different from Europeans? No doubt. But American girls from city-to-city, neighborhood-to-neighborhood are freaking culturally different. There's a stark difference in style and ambition from Washington to Baltimore for example (45 miles apart). I also reserve the right to be suspicious of any ROK reader or follower who claims otherwise, because if you read a lot of their guides to American cities, they are extremely surface level and focused on the generic bro locations. The early 20s myopia shines through.
In the end, advising guys to blame their problems on American cities and search for foreign paradise is irresponsible, especially for a guy like Roosh, who understands nich approaches to picking up girls but refuses to resolve the cognitive dissonance with all of his universalisms. Do Eastern European girls fulfill the role of a traditional wife better? Maybe, but manosphere readers advise against getting married, so what the fuck difference does it make?! It's like that one Roosh forum member Giovanny, who brags about how there are attractive girls over 30 who want to bang him, but he refuses in favor of his 3% cold approach method with early 20s girls. What's the point of doing that if you aren't interesting in a long-term relationship? You're going to make life harder for yourself just to make a stupid and useless political statement?
To Aaron :
DeleteI won't go into semantics but please realise that this is something you guys do a lot on this blog. You make strong statements or generalizations, people call you on it and you just answer by "learn how to read, this is not what I MEANT".
Either stand your ground or write your articles better but there is clearly a problem when you have to say that this often.
I am 22, I lived one year in Denmark, three months in Amsterdam where I dated a Swedish girl and I will live in St Petersburg this summer and hopefully next year. I think I have had my share of experience so I can have a relevant opinion on this subject.
And yes I maintain, being French will help you tremendously with American girls. I experienced that, my friends experience that, every decent looking French guy living in the US experiences that. Mostly because there, girls still have this fantasized vision of France, just a one week trip to Paris would crush their dreams.
Money matters, agreed, yet you don't speak much on what you have to do to acquire it. Making good money and having a flexible job that allows interesting activities aside is pretty difficult (depending on what you call intersting activities). Starting a company is a good way to make money while doing something you are passionnate about, yet it's extremely time consuming as well. Your call.
This is only a problem with people who obviously can't read and don't know how imprecise their language is. You first stated that girls will bang you because you are French (!) before you added, "not only because I'm French". You put your nationality first. It's arguably much closer to the truth that you are a decent looking French guy, which is why you get girls. "Being French" won't help the average French dude getting laid abroad. Besides, the average French speaks absolutely rotten English, so the fact that you're conversant in this language puts you above many of your fellow countrymen already. I'm not exaggerating at all. I have met French au pairs in London who were absolutely unable to communicate in English, and even French students who did postgraduate degrees at renowned universities didn't do much better.
DeleteOK, you've got your experiences, I've got mine. I've spent a good two years in London, and my experience was that girls from a solid middle-class background are rather conservative when it comes to long-term dating. They gladly fuck the "exotic" foreigner, but for anything really serious, they prefer their own kind. This is also backed up by the fact that inter-racial/cultural marriages are still an exception.
Regarding my views on money you might want to have a look at my forum and my writings. Never do I claim that you have to roll in dough to get anywhere with girls. In short: be able to support yourself, don't kill yourself at the office, and you'll be golden. Working insane hours for a dubious payoff is hardly ever worth it.
Oh, and anyway thank you for this blog, even if I don't agree with many things it is quite thought provoking, which is something that the immense majority of blogs fail to do.
ReplyDeleteYou've very welcome. I'm glad you enjoy my posts.
DeleteMay I say, that I do enjoy your blog too - and I happen to agree with most entires as well. ;)
DeleteThanks, man! I appreciate the support.
DeleteGreat post, are you going to do a post focussing on hypergamy next? That's a concept that fuels the whole DHV stuff that PUAs love to repeat.
ReplyDeleteWhile I'm sure the idea of a pussy paradise in the afterlife is older than the most famous example of "72 virgins," the idea of a pussy paradise on Earth was always hard to believe for me (we cannot help but be human, and the vast majority of human beings have sexual standards that normally aren't overridden aside from the prospect of personal gain). Then again, Roosh isn't the only person thinking there's a pussy paradise--Winston Wu's HappierAbroad.com website is based around the idea that pussy and/or "better" marriage/LTR partners are anywhere but where you normally reside.
Probably the places that have a truly serious lack of women are places that have sex-selective pressures in place, such as India or China, that have resulted in an extreme sex ratio tilted towards men. From what I've read, men in both those places have resorted to human trafficking for brides, increased use of prostitution, etc., all because having female children was "everybody else's problem." Some of the remaining native women in China, or so I've heard, have thus taken advantage of their rarity by demanding a high SES level to even consider a man for a relationship.
What about racial preferences in dating? The bit about "Black Women and Asian Men are least-preferred groups in North American dating" is pretty common. Have you seen this borne out in your experiences?
Aaron, do you believe that Looks, Money, Status > personality in attracting a female to give you IOI?
ReplyDeleteYou're setting up a false dichotomy, but let's be honest now: if you're 5'0", live in your mother's basement, and your only income are food stamp, you'll have a fucking hard time attracting any woman. Personality doesn't exist in a vacuum, and you certainly shouldn't believe that if a guy takes care of himself, had a decent job, and enjoys some popularity (= isn't a complete loner) automatically has no personality. Besides, she can't smell your great personality. In short, you're arguing like a stereotypical fat girl.
DeleteBut let's bring your argument to its logical conclusion: Since you're so big on "personality", then why don't you go after all the fatties who claim to have the same point of view. You'll probably find that you're interested in more than just "personality", and that they wouldn't like to bang a guy like Quasimodo either.
I would say money is the least important especially if you are looking just for some casual sex.
DeleteAnd I dont see why are lumping money and status together with looks, as if there is no people who got the looks but not the money/status or vice versa.
I would say it goes like this, from most important to least:
1. Looks
2. Personality
3. Status
4. Money
Of course if you are famous, and happen to hit on your female fan, then status will trumph anything alse
Money is relative. Try going to a club and getting laid with some random chick if you can't afford cab fare or cover charge. Your list is just mental masturbation, though, and it's easy to construct realistic (!) counter examples. Imagine you look for a long-term partner, and meet conditions 1) and 2), yet, you've got no job and your prospective wife/girlfriend would have to support you. Can you imagine how well this would go?
DeleteI remember the old joke that "a male writer without a girlfriend is a homeless man." These days that group wants to write themselves out of the welfare recipient list like JK Rowling did.
DeleteHoly s***, Roosh just posted this on his website.
ReplyDelete> Quote:A Swiss woman who was on a cycling trip in central India with her >husband has been gang-raped by eight men, police said Saturday. The attack >comes three months after the fatal gang-rape of a woman aboard a New Delhi bus >outraged Indians.
...
> The woman, 39, was treated at a hospital in the nearby city of Gwalior, >Gurjar said, adding that she and her husband apparently suffered no major >injuries.
>http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/...india.html
Comment by Roosh: "I can't even imagine seeing my wife get raped by eight IRTs, one after the other."
Roosh is basically fomenting ethnic hatred on his own website. What a piece of s*** as a human being.
Well, India is definitely one of those countries where the lack of native-born women (thanks to years of sex-selective pressure resulting in sex-selective abortions) is starting to show some serious consequences. This doesn't excuse the rapists' actions, but does make it all the more likely.
DeleteIt wasn't until I noticed Roosh's tolerance of white nationalists and other such racists on his forums, views which seem he too adopted that I began to examine his bullshit in greater depth and eventually became disillusioned.
DeleteAs an Indian male, it is pretty awful that stuff like this goes on in India.
DeleteAs inappropriate as it is to compare tragedies, it has to be said that the bus rape was far more horrific than what the Swiss woman endured for a couple of reasons
One does not anticipate getting raped in a bus in the middle of the capital city in brad day light
It is pure madness for an unarmed white couple to go cycling in the badlands of India. They should have excericized discretion.
Obviously this is not to let the criminals off the hook ,I hope they are torn apart by wild horses but seriously white chicks get a clue and dont wandering around dangerous places where common sense would indicate that its a bad idea.
Anyway, I know that in India even educated middle class males see white women as raw meat to be exploited. To a lesser degree this is true even of Indian Americans.
Most Indians I know have a longing for white women that can get rather creepy. And they invariably behave like fools around them.
Oddly enough many Indians do well with Russian and East european women due the latter loving Bollywood LOL
In general Indian men have severe complexes dating from the colonial rule which they have yet to get over.
I faced my issues long time ago and dealt with them and since am considered good looking(though short)as well as quite westernized I do ok with attractive women of all backgrounds. My preferences are Arab, Latin American,Indian and Eastern European women roughly in that order ;-)
The blog you linked to wherein Roosh "explains" why American men "choose" to "go gay" pretty much sums up from whom Roosh was collecting his "flags" ---- from fags! LOL.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, before that I was pretty sure he was blogging from his dad and step-mom's basement this entire time due to lack of photo and videographic evidence. Now I pretty much believe he did go to Europe. But it wasn't women he was "banging".
Dude... he's been on tv in romania and ukraine
Delete@Anonymous
DeleteYou must be joking- that impresses you? You do realize that if you hire a good PR firm ,you can get on TV as well?
Haha, I'll have to disagree with some parts of what you said. I know too many American friends who said they got plenty of ass abroad in countries like, Germany, U.K. Japan, etc. etc. They told me the women was much easier than American women haha. Well the foreign women I met here in America have DEFINITELY been easier to smash than a regular US chick.
ReplyDeleteWhat's odd is Roosh and his ilk complain that American women are "sluts" while foreign women are "classier, more feminine, more traditional and family oriented".
DeleteOK, what's more "traditional and family oriented" about having one night stands with strange foreign men?
The classy, traditional and family oriented women of any country are not going to be doing that.
And if American women are such "sluts" then why can't they get laid here?
I guess this is an unintended consequence of PUA training--if putting on the act of a narcissistic, pathologically unbonding, and emotionally unavailable Alpha is good enough for these PUAs to get Alpha-class women, then they're that much likelier to be convinced by women putting on the "perfect housewife act."
DeleteAnd American women according to these websites are the worst scum of the Earth, who are looking just to divorce and marry up and/or get pregnant with the children of an Alpha, and who have no idea how to act feminine. There's no lack of vitriol for them on the internet.
There are two schools of anti-PUA. One is the Aaron Sleazy, Johnny, and Shackleford school which says postfeminist Western women generally and American women specifically aren't so bad, and PUA is bad for reinforcing negative stereotypes about them that aren't true. The other is the Alek Novy and Lifestyle Journey for Men school which says postfeminist Western really are pretty bad, but PUA techniques exacerbate the problem by training men to cater to and reinforce their awfulness rather than learn to transcend it. (Pardon me if I'm overgeneralizing. I'm simplifying to keep the comment short.)
DeleteBoth schools agree that PUA doesn't work and that non-Western women aren't some magic, flawless answer to all men's problems, but differ on their view of Western women. I'm in the middle. I don't think American/Western women are sociopathic monsters to the extremes that Roissy and Roosh paint, but I don't buy into the idea that American women aren't awful either. There is SOME truth (just a little) to what Roosh says about them, especially the endless sarcasm that gets grating over time.
Grizzly, you said...
Delete"The other is the Alek Novy and Lifestyle Journey for Men school which says postfeminist Western really are pretty bad"
The only difference between me and anti-pua-johnny is that I spend a lot of time talking about "female laziness" and "female dating unaccountability". That's it. That's my ONLY gripe towards women as a group. Both Aaron and Johnny agree with this point (if you'll reference an earlier debate had on here with someone about whether women do anything or wait for the man to do all the moves/work).
The only difference is Aaron/Johnny don't go out of their way to constantly bring up this female flaw, whereas I do it every chance I get...
Female laziness = the fact that women in 2013 still wait for the man to make all the moves, and that they go out of their way to make CERTAIN that they're never accountable or responsible for any mating or courting that happens (They always set it up as something that "happens to them" so that ultimately men can be blamed when things go wrong). You can reference the KC dot discussion earlier on this blog.
Believe it or not in real life I don't have male friends, all my friends are female. I actually get along better with women and am not that good at socializing with men (don't have as much in common with men)...
I actually love women in every way and for everything they are. My ONLY gripe towards women as a group is on the "mating laziness, unaccountability and passivity" front. That's it.
but PUA techniques exacerbate the problem by training men to cater to and reinforce their awfulness rather than learn to transcend it.
DeleteI've never said that women are "awful"... wtf? I am only saying they are LAZY in mating and go out of their way to take zero responsibility and AGENCY for outcomes in dating/mating/courtship/escalation. I also mind women's ingratitude and entitled attitude toward men's work. Most women in today's world feel that they are OWED a pursuit, owed escalation, owed a date, an initiation of a kiss, initiation of sex, merely for hinting they might or might not be interested in one. In fact, most women will go so far as to make sure they proactively lie about their interest and put it in a mixed-signals sandwich so that they always have "plausible deniability". She was "seduced", as opposed to having it be mutual escalation.
I say that PUA-ism excerbates the problem by giving even further licence to women to be even more lazy and free of agency, risk, responsibility etc etc...
Aaron/GLL's models do not feed into the problem, because in Aaron/GLL's models you wait for the woman to EARN more.
PUAism says it's your duty as a man to jump through hoops to earn pussy. GLL tells you to screen. Aaron pushes for what I would describe as mutual escalation. Neither model rewards undeserving women with one-sided effort or allows women to get away with plausible deniability.
"There is SOME truth (just a little) to what Roosh says about them, especially the endless sarcasm that gets grating over time."
ReplyDeleteSarcasm is a form of humor. Some cultures are more sarcastic than others, they can appreciate and "get" sarcasm more than others. America's "humor culture" employs sarcasm to a large degree.
People should take note of Alek Novy's explanation above, its spot-on.
ReplyDeleteIs this opinion that there is no "pussy paradise" based on travels and experiences or just on a personal opinion on how it should be and wanting to debunk the manosphere?
ReplyDeleteI've travelled on 5 continents and there are in fact places where it is much easier to meet women (normal women, not goldigging prostitutues) and where the women are more old-fashioned, family oriented and probably would make better wives. Westerners (especially white westerners) are often seen as high status in many developing countries, even by the middle and upper classes of society. The "exotic factor" probably also plays a role, in addition the fact that westerners are much taller and bigger than local men in many parts of the world. A friend of mine who lives in the Philippines has women of all classes throw themselves at him because he is tall and white.
I wish people like you would read the actual article instead of adding a comment because the headline doesn't agree with their world view. Go back and pay attention to the paragraph that starts with, "Sex tourism is based on economic inequality."
DeleteI read the article and I don't agree that it's all about economic inequality. If that's all it was about, white westerners wouldn't do well in rich Asian countries like Japan and Korea (Japanese women LOVE American men) and wouldn't do well with upper class women in developing countries in Asia and South America. It's about the fact that white westerners are seen as high status in many places (because of the media, American movies, etc.), are exotic and tall compared to the local population, and also the fact that women in many countries are more conservative, family-oriented, and have more realistic expectations than western women have.
DeleteOf course the laws of attraction still apply. If you're a 50 year old sex tourist looking for a teenage bride, the one you find may very well use you for your money. If you're a decent looking 28 year old westerner looking for a 25 year old foreigner, you will likely find a much better one than at home and she will probably be a lot LESS likely to divorce you and take your money because divorce is generally more frowned upon outside the western world.
That's my take anyways. I think it really is better overseas for nice, hard-working, decent looking men that are ignored in the west.
Sorry, but that's not true. Divorce is pretty common in Korea for instance. And I've heard many Korean men complain about Korean women and theur high expectations and many of them dream of the foreign woman. Sounds familiar? I've heard men from many countries complain about women in their own countries. I was once talking with a taxi driver about this (in Europe) and he said something very wise - if you hear a man shamming his own country women then run, run, run. And he is right. Many of you American guys dreaming of a foreign woman cannot read any foreign language but I assure you, similar discussions do exist in other languages. I am Eastern European and while most of my fellow country men say we are the prettiest women in the world, so many others complain that we are easy sluts selling ourselves to foreigners.
DeleteI think it's very bad to start a relationship based on stereotypes and expectation of the country where your partner comes from. If you want someone from a particular country because you believe they have such and such qualities, you put high expectations and also kind of objectify the other person. Instead of getting to know them really and deeply as a person, you apply a set of stereotypes to them. And this inevitable leads to disappointment. I would date a guy from any country (as long as the cultural gap is not too big). When I meet a foreigner of course I'm curious about their country but I don't see the person as the American or the French, I see him as a man and try to get to know him. I wouldn't date him just because I've heard French guys are very romantic - I would date him because he makes me feel a certain way and has certain qualities I like. But honestly, it took me a lot to start seeing people like that and not objectify them. It's not easy, I admit.