Roissy appears worse because his bullshit has more followers, but as others have noted, his site has the unexpected effect of actually de-programming a lot of people from game. It's not just the flowery language and mixed metaphors (actually, 'mixed' is being too generous, it's more like a metaphor puree), his general philosophy will lead most readers who still possess a modicum of sanity to draw the following conclusions:
1. If the world is like Roissy describes, then I want to kill myself
2. If following Roissy's model is the way to salvation, then I want to kill myself even more.
Thankfully, the real world is nothing like Roissy's softcore collapse porn, and it's pretty easy to conclude that he and his followers have lost the plot entirely.
Roosh's approach, however, is more annoying, because he presents himself as some sort of "everyman," and he thinks that his frustration with American women represents that of the average dude. No; Most American men with a shred of common sense are doing fine. In addition, Roosh doesn't seem to be very bright or openminded when it comes to discussing American women. He has lived in ONE motherfucking American city in his adult life, and he draws all sorts of conclusions about US females based on it. Just drive 40 miles North to Baltimore and you'll see a world of difference in interests and attitude. But no, Roosh chooses to dismiss Baltimore based on a few nights out in FUCKING POWERPLANT LIVE. That's the thing; how can you draw conclusions women in cities, much less women in general, if you don't know where the actual cool areas to hang out are?
Sunday, October 7, 2012
Reader Comment on Roissy and Roosh
Shackleford left a comment on my recent post Roosh V Sucks With Women And Doesn't Know It, which I thought deserved greater attention. Lean back and enjoy the read!
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Thanks for the props. To continue on this point, I love how Roosh complains about the conniving and manipulative nature of Western women, then talks at length about how these supposedly "superior" Estonian women are continually attempting to scam him at bars and clubs. When you've convinced yourself of a belief (Eastern European women are better than Western women), I guess your mind will filter out any evidence contradicting it. I don't really have a horse in the race of "American vs. Eastern European" women debate, but I thought the cognitive dissonance was funny.
ReplyDeleteAgain, the grand irony of all this is that Roosh will occasionally post something practical that refutes broad stroke PUA-philosophy. He'll talk about niche game, getting involved in a particular scene in a city where the type of girl will be might be different, and possibly more receptive to an individual guy's strengths and weaknesses. Then he'll turn around and and write a post condemning all Western/American women as the same, contradicting himself in the process.
Why does this happen? Because the Roosh's and Roissys of the world can't penetrate an urban niche scene. Clever lines and alpha posture aren't gonna get you accepted with the hipster crowd. Being in a band or a dj/artist/writer does. Ditto for any other activity-based urban scene, whether it's an outdoors group, biking ect. The only thing Roosh "does" is try to pick up girls, so that only leaves him with the pick-up friendly post-frat and sorority bar and club scene. Guess what? The girls you meet there aren't going to be that cool, and most of them aren't going to be tolerant of unemployment either. I guess that makes them evil materialists. But regardless, it doesn't mean you can make accurate depictions of all American women based on that sample.
I agree with a lot of Shackleford's points, but I do think Roosh is right about how awful in general American women are. Where I disagree with him is in this idea that foreign women are so much better. For example, Shackleford describes how a Roosh could get laid with the urban hipster crowd, but I've fucked a lot of those types of girls and they are as awful, spoiled, entitled and arrogant as the average American girl Roosh describes. I don't think Roosh gaining access to those types of women would improve his outlook on American women much.
ReplyDeleteThis is not a defense of Roosh, however I don't automatically believe the enemy of my enemy is automatically my friend either. Just because I think Roosh is wrong about a lot of things doesn't mean I think he's wrong about everything. The average American urban woman is intolerably spoiled and dull. I do think however that Roosh's proposed solutions to that problem though makes him even worse for men than the problem he's set out to solve.
There are huge cultural differences. I am far from wanting to praise women from third-world countries as superior and whatnot. This is a part I leave to some corners of the "manosphere". Yet, it is hard to deny that many Western women are incredibly materialistic. It's even worse when they want to engage in social climbing at all costs. There are plenty of rather tragic women out there who don't realize that they don't bring much to the table, often not even good looks.
DeleteBy the way, I feel much more at home in the "hipster" crowd myself, but this doesn't mean that you couldn't find some colossal assholes among them.
Yet, it is hard to deny that many Western women are incredibly materialistic. It's even worse when they want to engage in social climbing at all costs. There are plenty of rather tragic women out there who don't realize that they don't bring much to the table, often not even good looks.
DeleteOh I agree there are huge cultural differences and that the Western women are awful. When I say that foreign women are often as bad, I mean that they are as bad but in different ways. For example a Western woman is so headstrong, stubborn, spoiled, and batshit insane and competitive that she can't swallow her pride long enough to trap a decent guy. She'll drive away any half normal guy with self-respect and only end up with the worst masochists to marry, or end up alone with her career. Many of the foreign women I've met have a very advanced, long-term game that they play very well, where they can play submissive and manipulate while letting a guy think he's in control the whole time. They're smart enough not to turn shrewish or demanding until they have the ring and maybe a kid or two. This is a generalization of course, not all of them are this bad, and all things equal I'd still choose the foreign woman, but make no mistake, foreign women will eventually test you and try to emasculate you just like any other, it's just a slower, more dangerous process, like slowly boiling a frog. A lot of these manosphere guys however just think these women are pussycats, which they may be in short term flings, but if any of them marry them and bring them to the US they're in for a rude awakening down the line.
By the way, I feel much more at home in the "hipster" crowd myself, but this doesn't mean that you couldn't find some colossal assholes among them.
The hipster crowd Shackleford was talking about I assumed was the NY, and NorthEast Coast of America hipster crowds, which is where it all began. I was talking about Brooklyn and lower Manhattan hipsters, a crowd I frequented since 2001. They are uber-douches, awful. If you want a pitch-perfect depiction, I highly suggest watching a show about Brooklyn hipsters called Girls on HBO, the first season just wrapped up and can be found on torrents. I'm not sure if the hipsters you say you feel at home with are those types of hipsters, or hipsters from other areas (for example I went to Austin and various parts of Europe and found the hipsters there to be surprisingly cool, nothing like the NY ones). Watch the show Girls and see what I mean when I talk aboout how East Coast hipsters act.
That's why I say I think Shackleford is wrong about how penetrating hipster circles would make Roosh like American women more, because given that he lives in DC I imagine those types of hipsters must be not that different than the NY hipster girls depicted in Girls, except uglier.
I'm actually not referring to NY or Washington-based hipsters, although I lived in both cities briefly. My experience in New York leads me to believe there are both vapid hipsters and career girls, but the sheer size range of subcultures in NY allowed me to meet a good number of normal girls who fit in neither category. Note that I gave examples of other alternative subcultures that aren't hipsters in my post. There's a huge range of types between status-obsessed hipster and status-obsessed career girl. To draw a conclusions based on those examples is to create a false dichotomy.
DeleteWashington DC is a one-horse town, and anyone who is trying to be a creative type, or hipster, if you will, is mostly playing dress up. Washington is based around politics/power, and since Roosh's experience with American women is limited to this city, and since Roosh has no curiosity about culture beyond pick-up, I find his sweeping conclusions about American women based on nights trolling trendy U Street and Dupont Circle bars to be a tad flawed.
Which leads me to my next point: You mentioned the attitudes of girls in Austin. I live in a similar city; not in the top five, but still a relatively major US city with several different subcultures going on. This is the city that I used to base the conclusions in my post on. In my city, things are more favorable for guys in both the career and hipster circles. There is less male competition around, and less of a cuttroat status approach ingrained in the culture, so girls are more open and down to earth here. There are several cities like this in the US with their own idiosyncratic standards. Most importantly, these are cities where doing the Roosh V-style "go to the bars with 4 of my bros obviously on the prowl, walking 4 abreast on the sidewalk and knocking girls into railings" are not appreciated by the locals (here is an example of a Roosh night out in DC: http://www.aaronsleazy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1443). But this is the only world Roosh knows, because he has no curiosity about anything else but pick up. So I can't take his conclusions about American women very seriously. Are American women more materialistic, shallow, and distracted than Eastern European women? Maybe on the whole, but that whole is pretty useless when you consider individual cities. Are girls in Athens, Georgia gonna be more vapid than girls in Moscow? I doubt it.
There's a huge range of types between status-obsessed hipster and status-obsessed career girl. To draw a conclusions based on those examples is to create a false dichotomy.
DeleteAgreed, but I still think across the board American women keep getting worse, more spoiled, and more entitled and the range of "normal" chicks keeps getting smaller. You have to fish through a lot more terrible women to get to the good ones. I actually don't have trouble getting laid, but I do find that the laundry list of expectations women have, even the women who are in their 30s and up and bringing less to the table than before is still outrageous.
since Roosh's experience with American women is limited to this city, and since Roosh has no curiosity about culture beyond pick-up, I find his sweeping conclusions about American women based on nights trolling trendy U Street and Dupont Circle bars to be a tad flawed.
this I agree with. I think Roosh should do more traveling in the US. American women do seem especially flawed when you're using the Northeast big cities as your sample.
nt: You mentioned the attitudes of girls in Austin. I live in a similar city; not in the top five, but still a relatively major US city with several different subcultures going on. This is the city that I used to base the conclusions in my post on. In my city, things are more favorable for guys in both the career and hipster circles.
Okay, that's different. I've been to small towns like this and the hipster scenes there are way better I admit. It would be interesting to see Roosh visit a place like that.