Sunday, August 12, 2012

About "demonstrating high value"

You're probably familiar with Mystery's concept of "DHV", which basically every PUA since then has regurgitated. Of course, you can't quite demonstrate high value if you don't have it, and all that bullshitting and lying will not get you very far either.

A user on my forum, Martin, contributed an anecdote that shows why "DHVing" is just nonsensical:

A genuinely high status person doesn't need to tell or show other people he is high status. That's what's so fundamentally wrong about DHVing, for instance.

I will tell you a nice little story as an anecdote. A couple of years ago, I was eating dinner with my parents in a nice hotel in Amman, Jordan. Next to us was a big table with lots of really nicely dressed and apparently rich people. Suddenly a guy walks in wearing jeans and a sweater and all the "high status" dressed people stand up in order to greet him.

We asked one of the waiters who that man was and he replied: "That's the future king."

I wonder what David DeAngelo would have to say to that.

16 comments:

  1. Soooo I shouldn't tell a story about how I had to stop photographing playboy models, got in my Lamborghini and drove to save my stripper ex girlfriend from being gang-raped by the members of the Russian mob?

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  2. I think DHV works, but it works with the wrong kind of people. Just like people with genuine high status don't need to show off, people who are truly worth impressing similarly don't get wowed by showing off. Posing attracts poseurs. Broke, insecure people with flashy clothes impressing other broke, insecure people with flashy clothes.

    So I think DHV works, just not on anyone worthwhile. That's why pickup artists are known for ending up with such basketcases.

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  3. Perfect. What is ironic about pua advice is that it's understanding of human psychology is so poor that it does not know which behaviors actually express the qualities it seeks to express. It's psychology is so crude.

    Most people cannot quite verbalize it, but we all intuitively grasp that the guy who is "showing off" is not genuinely high status or genuinely confident. We instinctively react to show-offy behavior as an indication of lower status and lack of confidence. It is why Hollywood actors who are trying to convey ultra-confidence or exteme high status are trained to express themselves with restraint and moderation and avoid anything excessive "over-acting".

    Yet interestingly, in popular culture the average guy is firmly convinced that confidence is best expressed through "over-acting", or being extravagantly assertive and "putting himself out there", firmly convinced they are impressing the ladies with evidence of their high levels of confidence as the women - and savvy men - are simply rolling their eyes. That's why "over-acting" and goofy behavior is so common by guys in clubs - they really think it's the face of confidence. The crude, shallow, popular-culture conception of confidence which gets it so wrong is really hard for most guys to outgrow.

    Yet most guys are simply addicted to this kind of "over-acting" behavior and cannot quite convince themselves that it is actually a sign of insecurity. I have had conversations with friends who kind of saw my point, and could understand me intellectually and agree with me, but who would instinctively revert to show-offy behavior in clubs, and often try to defend it or deny that that's what they were doing. Show-offy behavior is "just having fun", they are just "more emotionally expressive than me", etc, etc. Such is the subconscious minds attachment to modes of thinking and acting that our conscious minds might be advanced enough to recognize as retregrossive.

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  4. That is such a horrible example. Everyone knows who he is.

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    1. Think about the anecdote and what you wrote again. It may blow your mind.

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  5. Of course, the entire concept of DHV is null - because you cannot overtly demonstrate high status or confidence. In fact, both qualities are characterized specifically by an absence of excessive display, and by a subdued reticence that specifically avoids ANY effort to impress or make others think highly of you.

    Conversely, avoiding excessive display or efforts to impress others in an effort to appear "cool" - which is sometimes counseled in PUA circles - is apt to come off as the kind of try-hard being "aloof" and "stony-faced" that is just as absurd and obvious an indication of insecurity as show-offy behavior. I have heard women mock this kind of obvious try-hard attempts at masculinity.

    Paradoxically, confident people are characterized by having "NO EGO". This seems like a paradox, but it isn't, really. In popular language the word "ego" is often used to denote the kind of behavior that is meant to impress ourselves on others and assert ourselves against them inappropriately. The frame of reference of such behavior is "what other people think of us", even if we are not always aware of this and sometimes such behavior appears to be not caring at all what others think. Being inappropriately assertive towards others, say, (trying to dominate them or not be appropriately considerate towards them), comes from a place of needing others to ACKNOWLEDGE your superirority (you need them to submit to you or acknowledge your superior right to mistreat them). The man genuinely free from needint others to acknowledge his superiority - the truly self-secure - does not need them to "submit" to him, and is not seeking to demonstrate his superiority through failing to be considerate, and so is typically not inappropriately assertive.

    So having "no ego" in the sense that one is not seeking to impress oneself on others is actually to have a firm, secure, and mature ego - in other words having "no ego" in the popular sense is to have a balanced and well-developed ego, one where you are not afraid to claim what is due you but are free from childish dreams of megalomania and the need to be inappropriately assertive towards others. Such well-balanced, truly secure individuals are rare in modern Western culture, especially in America, where a kind of childish and inappropriate assertiveness is encoueraged as an expression of "confidence".

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  6. So in sum, one should NOT try to be "show-offy - even in subtle ways - NOR should one try to be "aloof" or "indifferent" - one is an active attempt to show-off, and one is a passive attempt to show-off. They are two sides of the same coin. I do not want to give the silly impression that I believe confidence is expressed by being "aloof" or "indifferent". I want to make clear that such a silly notion is as bad as thinking that confidence is expressed by acting flamboyantly or with excessive self-assertion.

    Rather, according to my belief that confidence is best expressed by having "no ego" in the popular conception of that word, I believe one should be polite, considerate, and "open" (not aloof) to others, while at the same time, refusing to fawn over anyone or allowing oneself to be mis-treated. Not trying in the least bit to appear "superior" - not by being "indifferent", and not by being excessively self-assertive - as you simply do not need others to "acknowledge" your supposed superiority. In fact, you care so little about them acknowleding your superiority that you are quite prepared to treat them politely as equals :)

    When I go out in this frame of mind, I have my best social encounters, with both men and women. I tend to conncet with women very well in this state of mind and other guys are quite willing to socialize with me. Of course, a woman still has to be sexually attracted to me to go home with me, but I believe this state of mind is optimum and at least removes any social barriers.

    The moment arrogance or "ego" creeps back into my mindset, I bomb socially, every time.

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    1. John, I like your comments a lot! If you don't mind, I'll re-publish them on the front page of the blog.

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  7. Very good comments, John

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  8. This is interesting because this is the exact same discussion I was having with a friend the other day. He's not a PUA but was trying to tell me that you have to "sell" yourself to the girl/impress her or make yourself "memorable". I was saying that I feel very cheap trying to do any such thing and that it just doesn't feel natural.

    The example I gave to him was of Bill Gates. That would BG bother trying to "sell" himself to anyone. His point was that if the person in front doesn't know that he is Bill Gates, then he should. I told him that it wouldn't matter to Bill Gates even if someone didn't know who he is and maybe thinks he's a stupid dud. He would still not bother selling himself. It's more like the necessary people already know who he is, and others would recognize very quickly without him having to sell himself.

    In my experience as well, purposely talking about my DHV things/showing off (and I believe I have quite a few things I can rattle off to people which would qualify as major DHVs) only tends to attract wrong kinds of people.

    I wrote about this in my blog as well in one of earliest posts that when I dropped game and any other shit which just felt weird, and just started being the natural me, I met and made friends with some very awesome guys and girls. This was a very important experiences which led me away from "game" - that dropping game, which is supposed to help you, only prevented me from meeting the kind of people I really wanted to.

    This is also interesting to me as I am doing a start up and this loosely relates to a point in the entrepreneurship community. There are a bunch of start up founders who spend a lot of time and effort right from the beginning on Marketing, PR, advertising and the like. The advice and feedback we are consistently getting from founders who started companies which are now valued at more than $100M is that just focus on building a solid product first and ignore everything else.

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  9. These DHV's can really get stupid.

    Due the fact that I've been involved in the community, I actually know some of the mystery method instructors in Belgium.

    These guys are always DHV'ing. A good example of this was a picture of a bbq he went to with friends "oh great so you have a social life :D". Later on he showed that picture to a random women in the club.

    So weird. These guys also come across as very fake. They are always in frat guy mode, always trying to appear a little too entertained.

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  10. While I agree that it is unnecessary to be try hard to get laid, it does work for some.

    Why?

    While many nasty instructors, RSD or Mystery for example, talk about women as if they are perfect magical creatures that see and know everything - this is not the case. There are a lot of lame, stupid and egotistical ones out there too. Women are human and have faults just like guys. Some are impressed by fake s**t and douchebag guys.

    It's important to realise if you are trying to improve yourself, sure in part it's to impress others, ultimately if that is your only motivation you'll be running in circles and never be satisfied. Be satisfied hitting your goals for your own reasons and realise there's no need to be perfect.

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  11. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2uv32oderM

    Go to 57:38. It's DJ Fuji... agreeing with you, dare I say. He says it's better to be sincere and funny than to be braggy.

    What are your thoughts Aaron Sleazy

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    1. I don't say that you have to be funny.

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  12. You don't understand the psychology behind DHVing at all. Demonstrating Higher Value doesnt mean you have to have higher value. Obviously a person who is considered "High Status" in our society doesn't need to demonstrate higher value....it's obvious and it is demonstrated naturally. If a nerdy guy of average social status wants to bang supermodels, he has to demonstrate that his value is higher....it doesn't matter if it actually is or not. The type of guy used in my example can NOT bang supermodels consistently without utilizing DHV. There are the rare hotties out there that get turned on by low self esteem or nerdy guys but that's an exception, not the norm.

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    1. Please see my reply here:
      http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-psychology-behind-dhvs.html

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