Monday, May 25, 2015

Let’s talk about cuckoldry figures for a moment

Recently a reader commented on my post, Does every girl have her price?, that cuckoldry rates are most likely a lot lower than often assumed among critical thinkers misogynists. The reference he provides points to the Discovery Magazine, where Razib Khan attempts to dispel the alleged cuckoldry myth.

That article is a pretty nice example of blatant agenda. It seems that Razib Khan does like to steer his readers towards making particular conclusions. Okay, so maybe the 10% figure is overblown, or any low two-digit percent number. But raising another mans offspring with your resources, while you believe that that kid who for whatever reason does not look like you at all, despite the family of your wife stressing over and over how similar you two are, is not a trifling matter.

Razib Khan writes that some biologist found that the numbers are “more in the 1-5% range, with 3.7% being a high-bound figure for one study”. Look at this drivel! One to five percent is a fricking huge number. How many percent of all people get murdered? A lot less. How many percent of all people die in traffic accidents? That’s also a lot less (a few 10,000 in the US, if I recall correctly). But, hey, if you then point at one study that finds a number like 3.7 %, you can distract from the fact that some other studies found a number as high as 5%.

What I also disliked was his appeal to blue pill sentiments:
Studies which rely on a data set consisting of men who have requested paternity tests are strongly sample biased toward those who have a reason to have suspicions. 
The bolding is in the original. There is some truth to that. However, the converse is not true. Just because someone, let’s say an enthusiastic blue piller who is overjoyed that he was able to marry a washed up ex-stripper, has no suspicions does not mean that he has no reason to be suspicious.

Quite frankly, the cuckoldry numbers are enormous, even if they are just in the one-digit range and not the two-digit range, so downplaying them is dishonest and does men a disservice. Instead, men should be encouraged to verify their paternity, even if they are sure that their sweetheart would never deceive them. There are women out there who tell their live-in boyfriends or husbands that they are meeting their girlfriends for lunch on Sunday --- when they are instead off to go to a technoclub and hope to get railed in a bathroom stall. On a related note, experiences like that may be the cause why men who have had many women normally do not idealize them at all.


  1. That's a good point, that lack of suspicion can be ideological or just plain naive and one can't conclude, as Razib naively does, that suspicion or lack thereof is based on evidence and probability.

    Razib in general is not a very perceptive thinker, and far too smug with little obvious basis - he is a competent writer but no more. Even though he has a blog on fringe sites like with an eclectic but overall far right slant, he has aspirations towards mainstream respectability - he was picked up by the NYTimes and then quickly dropped due to his associations with so called racist writers.

    A 5% cuckoldry rate is troubling, but it is also far less alarming than what you often hear on manosphere sites. I wouldn't call it huge. In fact I'd call it reassuring. Still, tho, I agree with your general point that no one should have illusions and every man should realize he is at risk for this.

  2. soo,, what about all the other cheats where they didnt get pregnant,
    since your female doesnt get pregnant easily that means that group is much larger.

    so 6-8 out of 10 sluts cheat atleast once.
    they also love their boyfriends.

  3. This reminds me of a guy I know who is a friend of a friend. The guy is a total chump! He works out on the oil rigs in Alberta in the winter and a few years back a friend of mine found his wife on the online dating site POF. Apparently when he confronted her about it she said it was just a joke. Apparently it didn't bother him either since said she never actually met anyone!

    Could you imagine as a guy if you were caught in bed by your wife/girlfriend with another woman and said it was just a joke? "Smile, honey, you're on totally hidden camera. We're going to be on the Dr. Phil show next month."

    1. "Apparently when he confronted her about it she said it was just a joke." ROTFL

      As far as your reversed "It's just a joke"-suggestion is concernd you might wanna check out the clasisc 1960s comedy "A Guide for the Married Man" (Music by John Williams btw.), where exactly that kind of a scene is being depicted and the husband talks himself out of the quagmire with "Hey honey, it's just a joke. It's not real…" – and in the movie it works spendidly :)

    2. That is a great movie!

    3. @ Phil D.: UUUUUUUh, yeah! And mind you, that was a full-fledged A-Movie in the 1960s ;)

      Ah, this is the scene I remembered, the famous "Deny, deny, deny!"-scene: the husband in case doesn't go "It's a joke", he actively "denies" everything, which is just as good…

      Shitty quality, but who cares:

      Oh, and did I mention that splendid John Williams (back then credited as Johny T. Williams) wrote the awesome titel song & score? ;) That was from his early period, when he was a specialist for light, and elegant sophisticated comedies in his typical symphonic jazz vein, like for "How to steal a million".

      What a shame they don't make that class of movies any longer…

  4. Quite frankly, the cuckoldry numbers are enormous, even if they are just in the one-digit range and not the two-digit range, so downplaying them is dishonest and does men a disservice.

    Definetely. That 5% is a very high number if you consider that this is just the worst-case scenario. In other words, 5% only defines the most screwed up cheating slooots who went all the way full force and then purposefully lied about patternity. Consider the following.

    A) That getting pregnant is really difficult... and these are just the ones that got through
    B) These are JUST the ones who went through with the most despicable option all the way

    In other words, if half of the women who do this abort/admit to/dump the original guy (the cuckold), that makes it 10%... The 5% figure is just the women who succeeded taking it to its worst form, lying for years without getting caught.

    If you consider that they were banging mostly guys (probably players) who don't want to impregnate another guy's girl... that means that for every 1 that does get pregnant, there's many more of these situations that don't lead to pregnancy (coz the guy banging them is careful, never lets the condom slip etc).

    So make that as high as 30-50% of women are trying to get pregnant from another dude on the side...

    1. The truly disturbing thing for men is the prospect of raising a child not their own. Its common for people to suggest that this happens at a higher rate than it seemingly does. Whether you find the actual rate alarming or reassuring, as i do, is up to individual choice.

      How many women cheat is a separate, and less serious, issue, although certainly important as well.

      You are making some assumptions without a clear basis. For all we know, women who cheat are of particularly depraved character, typically irresponsible and dont use condoms, and are serial cheaters. In other words women who cheat have defining charachter traits that make it much more likely they'll get pregant. If this is the case, and I don't know that it is, cheaters who get pregnant may form the majority of cheatets, and the number of overall cheaters need not be so much greater than the subset that gets pregnant.

      40% cheating rate sounds like hyperbole. I'd put the upper range at 15%.

      I believe most adult aware men realie a not insignificant number of women cheat, but I suppose these figures are a useful corrective to naive and idealistic men, whose numbers are probably small in the modern world.

    2. 40% cheating rate sounds like hyperbole. I'd put the upper range at 15%.

      I am biased due to personal experience, due to the circles I move in. I'm part of a niche/lifestyle/hobby where we get a lot of girls who join the hobby/lifestyle without their boyfriends.

      I've yet to see one of them not cheat on her boyfriend. Literally 100% cheating rate. I've discussed it with other men, the idea is that hey, maybe this thing attracts cheating girls who only join to cheat on their boyfriends...

      Dunno... but still, from life experience of having made friends with a lot of womanizers, I might be jaded... but I can't possibly imagine a rate as low as 15%. That's inconceivable to me...

      Then again, a large chunk of girls are the boring type where they never go out without their boyfriend, only go to movie dates with each other, but otherwise spend all their time at home.

      So I guess the rate might be low for the population overall (since it includes the boring non-social couples who never even go anywhere except each other's homes).

      But if we talk about social girls with full lifestyles who meet a lot of people, i can't imagine it being 15% - that's inconceivable to me.

    3. Well, Alek, don't say I'm boring hahaha. (I'm not the anon above.) I find it super interesting to do "boring" things. I really have the time of my life when I just go for a walk around the lake. It's just a matter of biochemistry in the brain (there is an hormone for thrill seeking, I just don't have it enough).

      But I agree with you :
      - Thrill seeking people (always meeting new people) => cheating, because it is a matter of biochemistry (+ opportunities, if the girl is always out she will be approached a fuckload of times)
      - Calm "boring" people (never meeting any new people) => no cheating, because biochemistry again (+ no opportunities, who approaches her ?)

      So I guess your lifestlye attracts thrill seeking people.

    4. if you gonna see a ton of hot women who competes easily with your girl, you gonna cheat if enough are interested in fucking u.
      opportunities isnt a matter of a biochemistry.
      "biochemistry" are just your and hers reactions.
      opportunity part isnt, and some people fall in this without even seeking thrill, by randomness.

      ah alek do you mind to tell us more about how you break to such glamorous niches?

    5. Thrill seeking and preferring serial promiscuity is also a defining feature of sociopaths and cluster B personality disorders (not all thrill seeking people are character disordered), which lends some support to my hypothesis that cheaters might well not be typical people but rather particularly depraved.

      Cluster B personality disordered people are thought to comprise as much as 15%-20% of the population. That might be your cheaters right there, with a few extra normal people thrown in for good measure.

      Character disordered people can be difficult to spot by the unwary - its well known they can appear especially charming and likable - but there are always clear signs and gut feelings that are ignored, especially by nice, tolerant, and forgiving people, and vulnurable people who haven't developed a clear set of healthy boundaries.

      In other words, that wonderful girl who you're shocked to discover cheated on you almost certainly showed signs of psycopathy that were ignored or undetected.

      Character disordered people are very selective about who they interact with, are experts at reading people, and choose vulnurable, needy people and those who are unusually tolerant and forgiving.

      Tolerant, forgiving, and generous people, as well as the emotionally vulnurable, often go through a lifetime of attracting psycopaths, and, for instance, might have the experience that most of their mates have been horrible people.

      Not understanding whats going on, many might conclude that the opposite gender is just thoroughly rotten to the core and invest that gender with specific negative attributes that define all its members, since without a larger frame of reference it seems unlikely that they could be just be getting "unlucky" all the time. In fact, they might well have just had personalities that made them particularly appealing targets for the 20% or so of character disturbed people.

      I wonder how many men in the manosphere this applies to?

    6. Question is do women cheat because their partner is not good looking enough or because they simply crave excitement.

      Are your looks main determinant of woman's fidelity or do you simply have to find a woman who doesn't have 'cheating' personality.

    7. Answer is prolly : "both".

      Women that have thrill seeking personality will cheat no matter if her partner is good-looking or not.

      Other women will cheat if their partner is a provider and not attractive. (But won't if their partner is attractive.)

  5. I can attest to this, university is a place for fawking and fun.
    Do you guys have any indicator that a girl may not be likely to cheat.
    Honestly, I have slept with some girls back in university, and I honestly don't know if they have boyfriends.

  6. Hi Alek,
    Don't you mean 30-50% of women are cheating, not cheating with the intent of getting pregnant? Cheating I could easily see, but the second option is pretty much in the Jerry Springer category.

    1. Women cheating IS cuckolding not fully completed.

      Its a subconcious drive for females to do this to the primary provider male. Its the same thing. We only call it cuckolding when she doesn't abort the lover's child and lies about it being his.

      But the urge and drive she has to cheat IS the same drive that would bring her to cuckold.

      You might say "but wait, what about physical pleasure, can't she have other lovers just for the physical pleasure of having sex?"...

      In that case why does she have a primary boyfriend? Why not just be single and date multiple guys (if its just for the pleasure). CHEATING IS a cuckolding attempt.

    2. @ Alek: Once again, this is truth from the mountain.

    3. "You might say "but wait, what about physical pleasure, can't she have other lovers just for the physical pleasure of having sex?"...

      In that case why does she have a primary boyfriend? Why not just be single and date multiple guys (if its just for the pleasure). "

      I would have thought the reason is obvious. A primary boyfriend provides her with resources, a stable home base, social legitimacy, and a family, while she seeks pleasure on the side.

    4. @anon

      That's the same thing/point. She's USING one guy for resources while banging another guy. It's the same thing. If she has multiple guys JUST for pleasure, that's different.

      But if one is for pleasure (reproduction only), while the other one is being LEECHED off of, the one being leeched off will feel used. IT IS a cuckolding ATTEMPT on the biological level.

      Cuckolding is such an emotionally destructive thing for men, not because a woman had a baby with another man (you don't care as much if your FB gets pregnant with another dude, do you)...

      It feels extremely unfair BECAUSE the man feels USED for resources (etc)... To me its all in the same category called.

      "Using a man as a provision object"... with cuckolding only being its worst sub-category... But in the times she hasn't gotten pregnant yet from the lover, its not much less evil/sinister in my mind.

      Let's say a woman gets pregnant from a lover, and a full year passes where she doesn't tell the primary lover that its not his... Are you saying that the day before a year of lying completes, it was not that evil, but then the day after it becomes evil?

      Are you seeing what I'm saying? To me its like murder and attempted murder. If 5% of girls successfully murdered and (got away with) murdering their boyfriend, would we say its not that big a deal? Or would we wonder what the attempt rate is, and what the rate of girls not succeeding in hiding it, getting away with it, doing it?

      If you look at it that way, 5% is HUGE.

    5. There's two issues here.

      1) The prospect of raising and loving a child that isn't yours, which I think terrifies most men.

      2) What it means and how bad is it if a woman cheats on you.

      You seem mostly concerned with number 2, alek, and from that point of view of course it doesn't matter if she actually had a kid with another man or just cheated.

      But the cheating is really distinct from the issue of raising a child that isn't yours.

      As for the cheating issue, I think you have too much of an all or nothing attitude.

      A woman can love her husband, want a family and life with him, want his kids, enjoy sex with him, and every now and then cheat with other men for pleasure, maybe on the spur of the moment, maybe not. Or her husband might have let himself go - she still loves and wants a life with him, but a little pleasure on the side too.

      This scenario lends itself to many gradations and combinations.

      Your scenario is the absolute worst case scenario, where she leeches off a provider male and gets pleasure and perhaps offspring from another male.

      I would guess that most marriages where the woman is in it solely for providership, the guy on some level knows. Usually it's a mix.

      If you don't idealize women and romance too much, and remain realistoic and grounded, cheating doesn't have to be emotionally devastating depending on the corcumstances.

      However, raising a child that's not my own - no.

    6. so you will tolerate her cheating on you? its not like she is going to tell you directly
      how often she cheats.

    7. It depends on the circumstances and the quality of the overall relationship.

      Its not all or nothing for me.

      While I am capable of having warm, loving relations with women, women are not my everything, I don't excessively idealize the romantic tie, and I prefer to remain grounded and realistic. For alek, I suspect women are very close to his everything, his world, and like Othello, betrayal is the collapse of his universe.

      Its a spiritually dangerous thing, to seek redemption and salvation in romance. It will always end in bitterness. If you are grounded, you can have warm, satisfying relations with women.

      I can see myself, in certain circumstances, cheating on my wife yet still loving her and wanting to build my life with her and no one else. Its not different for women.

  7. Holy shit. I think this actually real,

    Maybe PUA Beckster is the master of cuckoldry? I thought he claimed to be the "alpha dog" and a master of "game?"

    1. I was imagining a PUA weirdo, but surprisingly I find him good-looking.

  8. Anon
    What you say is mostly bullshit.
    I have seen enough of these cheating things, I have been a part of it. The attitude you posts is just absurdly delusional. There is no middle ground for this.

    The only clean way around this whole thing is polyamorous relationship.

    You make it sound like each and every time your wife cheats, she carefully makes the guy wear condoms so that she could "just feel the pleasure while not being able to have a child with you". I call that absolute bullshit. Every girl I fucked that has a boyfriend or a husband at their home country are ready to go without condoms, and enjoy having cum dripping from their pussies. It's not like "recreational sex" is really recreational, there is always a biological drive behind it.

    Then you talk about "love". It's like I am gonna try to stab you behind your back while I am gonna love you and wanna build things together with you. What an absolute crap is this? Every whores who fuck around almost always come out with a pregnant test.

    You never convert a whore into a wife. That's how it is.

    The more dicks a broad has, the more likely she is going to cheat you.

    "I can see myself, in certain circumstances, cheating on my wife yet still loving her and wanting to build my life with her and no one else. Its not different for women."

    Oh yeah, what a bunch of backassward rationalization. What makes you want to stay with that thing you call your wife is the fear of losing your family altogether, your kids, your wife, your house, your money.

    Fuck you and the thing you call love.

    1. i loled, well chicks love response tied to her sex response.

      entitlement isnt love, just abusing the guy as a tool for maximum benefit wothout a care to the damage she does.
      the less fuck response, the more entitlement.

  9. I know a guy in the pharmaceutical industry. They do tons of extensive tests for their concoctions. Whenever there is a hereditary aspect to the disease to be fought, DNA testing for lineage are done. While officially nobody looks into the details concerning 'lineage fails', this guy has access to the raw numbers. He is adamant that cuckoldry rate are typically in the 15% to 25% range. This is as close to the truth one will get. The subject is mega hyper sensitive and officialdom will go to extreme lengths to suppress facts, heck even the Israeli nukes are a transparent subject in comparison.

  10. Written by texas arcane this guy really is persuasive that i almost believe it. It would be really helpful with your input sleazy because im losing my mind by reading his blog :S thanks"An Exogamous Matriarchy is a nearly perfect evolutionary selection mechanism for making humans better, both female and male. It is the diametric opposite of the way that Homo Sapiens works and the results speak for themselves. In this kind of society, females may sometimes take other lovers than their husbands but the husbands are bound for life to the same female. Neanderthals were monogamous on the male side, slightly polygamous on the female side. Why is this a perfect organization of family units, the direct opposite of Homo Sapiens where the reverse is true? The females confused parentage subtly in this fashion meaning males could harbor slight doubts about whether any particular child was theirs. This ended up making them universally responsible for the welfare, safety and security of all children in their tribes and the female selected them for the very qualities that would make them perfect for this role. The same qualities we consider ideals in knights and mythical heroes, the Neanderthal female actively triaged their males for these traits through sexual selection, pushing growth in their frontal lobes and brain mass. You know how the Homo Sapiens female admits she is attracted to the "bad boys?" Well, the Neanderthal females looked relentlessly for the "good boys." The sort of mate a Homo Sapiens female will realize she should have been looking for when she was younger long after she has passed her sexual prime, the Neanderthal female was looking for when she was younger. Do you know the Bonnie Tyler song, "I need a hero?" Well, Neo females were singing that song for a half a million years. The results speak for themselves.

    It basically means that men defer to women, despite having superior strength and intelligence to them. The core of the Neanderthal tribe viewed all males before sexual maturity as "candidates" to be watched very closely as they approached their prime. There was no higher court of appeal. If you got the thumbs down by all the girls of the tribe, all women with IQs much higher than Sapiens females, you were out. You went walkabout, which means you walked around 200 kms until you dropped dead of starvation and fell into a mud pool where you fossilized and were found by Sapiens paleontologists 200,000 years later who wondered what in the hell a Neanderthal male was doing in the middle of nowhere dead of starvation, seemingly as far away from the nearest village as was possible. They got voted off Neanderthal island. Come get your torch.

    Rinse and repeat this process for thousands upon thousands of years under supervision of *highly* intelligent females and you will get a very spectacular male at the end of it. Every single quality that is a sexual attractor in the Homo Sapiens male should be recognized as the exact qualities that Neo females considered congenitally inferior, damaged goods.

    I suspect in their animal wrestling rodeos, one of the things females looked for in the males regardless of how they performed was sportsmanship. If they saw a male get thrown off the back of a bison, then nonchalantly walk over chuckling and pretending to have felt virtually nothing, or clapping and celebrating the success of other males, the Neo female shrewdly identified this sort of character as excellent breeding material. You know how Homo Sapiens always says "There is no such thing as a good loser?" Well, Neanderthal females automatically identified sore losers as weak stock and damaged goods.

    Everything that Homo Sapiens has bred for, Neos bred against.

    However superior individually, including sexual restraint, a race of supermen did not stand a chance against a vicious zombie army of spearchuckers outnumbering them a thousand to one. Not a chance"


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