Friday, June 28, 2013

PUA Travesty on Kickstarter

While I certainly don't agree that literally anything is "rape" nowadays in the minds of some deluded feminists, including talking to a woman, I do think that the concept of "plowing" has been taken way too far in the PUA community. If you persist when the woman objects to your advances, you certainly met the criteria for sexual harassment. For an extreme example, look at my 2011 post RSD is cool with date rape.

Quite recently, I've been told about a Kickstarter project that was eventually banned, but only after it reached its funding goals. First, thanks to all those who pointed this out to me: Assanova, B., and an anonymous commenter. I don't follow the PUA scene much these days, so I'm grateful when people tell me about various absurdities. To recapitulate the story, Tofu Tofu, a guy from the seduction section on Reddit put up a Kickstarter project with the title, "Above the Game: A Guide to Getting Awesome with Women". Looking for controversy to get some buzz going, he mixed his mental masturbation with a good dose of sexual harassment. Here's a quote:
All the greatest seducers in history could not keep their hands off of women. They aggressively escalated physically with every woman they were flirting with. They began touching them immediately, kept great body language and eye contact, and were shameless in their physicality. Even when a girl rejects your advances, she KNOWS that you desire her. That’s hot. It arouses her physically and psychologically.

 I do advocate getting physical with girls. However, getting physical with girls who aren't interested in you is nothing but stupid. Yes, this constitutes sexual harassment. Yes, sexual harassment can have serious real-world consequences. Yes, if you force yourself upon a girl who is not interested and end up having sex with her, you are not overcoming "LMR" but are in fact raping her. Seduction requires mutual sexual interest. Steamrolling doesn't cut it. Here's another quote from "Tofu Tofu" to illustrate the problem:
Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances.
A comment from NeoGAF sums it up nicely:
There is bad dating advise and then there is criminal action date advice.
Tofu Tofu dramatically overplayed his hand, in his attempt to generate controversy. What an incredible slime ball he is was evident in the messages he sent to Jezebel, hoping to get some coverage:
I showed [Above the Game] to my brother's Jezebel-addicted ex-girlfriend and she went on a 3 hour diatribe about it. Your readers will eat it up! Come on, a bunch of nerdy guys on reddit live-blogging their exploits with women? You can't make this shit up :)
In case it isn't obvious: Tofu Tofu mocks the very people who had pledged about $15,000 on Kickstarter behind their back, and he also thinks that the Jezebel editor he has been emailing was completely stupid. Sure, his "brother's Jezebel-addicted ex-girlfriend [...] went on a 3 hour diatribe about it." Of course she did!

Resentment was building, though, and a petition was started that gathered over 60,000 supporters. Kickstarter responded, eventually taking down Tofu Tofu's project, and even updating their TOS to prohibit all seduction-related material. Well, I think the last step is a bit too dramatic, but it's not uncommon for "white knights" to over react and swing the ban hammer.

Let me now go off a tangent for a bit and point out that the petition was quite likely driven by a feminist mob. Coverage on Jezebel is one indication of that. Another are comments like by one Nora Hunt:
Horrifying! Thank goodness action against this was (finally) taken. That Reddit forum is equally troubling to me...guys with that terrible mindset frighten me. Do we really need a place for them to congregate (even online)?
Sure, Nora, let's just censor everything you girls don't like! Who needs free speech anyway. Oh, and with all the trouble Jezebel went through to (deservedly) bash TofuTofu, I wish they would spend some time so talk about low-lifes such as multi-millionaire Susan Wilson who scammed a good $20,000 out of the Kickstarter community so that her daughter "could learn how to code." At least she was playing contemporary "we need more women in tech" feminist sentiments like a pro. (For further info, read this, and this.)


  1. Unrelated topic : Roosh takes a new path :

    this will be interesting.

    1. The fool has to grow up eventually...perhaps he's been reading this blog for the past few months?

  2. "I do think that the concept of "plowing" has been taken way too far in the PUA community."

    Well, even the advertisers got it right and they give you a major hint:

  3. What does LMR stand for?

    1. This is a PUA term. It's an acronym for "Last Minute Resistance", which is something only known to PUAs. You know, after bullshitting for hours and pretending to not to want to have sex with the girl, they eventually surprise the girl that they actually do want to bone her, and at that point she is understandably confused and not quite willing to go along yet.

    2. Hey Sleazy this is Ryo. We had an argument a while ago where I was criticizing your native country Germany, and other European countries for being corrupt; since you kept targeting America. Anyways that was foolish. There is a lot of corrruption and fuckery in America politics, and its people. Such criticisms should be made. On another note, I'm very pleased to see that you have maintained your high quality forum. It's a great place for high-quality meaningful discussion. And that is VERY RARE on the internet nowadays. I learned a lot of from looking at it, along with your blogs. On topic, this Tofu guy doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. He's literally advocating rape for attention and controversy. What a selfish piece of human debris. These are the people that are (mis)leading the insecure inexperienced date-help seeking portion of the internet around. Who are in a bad need for helpful advice, and strong critical thinking.

      Anyways, good job on the blog and take care Sleazy.

    3. I also accused you of racism for targeting Justin Wayne, which was wrong. That guy is a lying scamming fuck. You was right about that guy. It was stupid to defend that joke. He truly should have been deported. That about sums it up.

    4. Hey Ryo!

      I'm happy to hear from you. What made you change your mind?

      I agree that these days, it's next to impossible to find a forum that is worth skimming. Just look at Reddit and how quickly even more obscure sub-boards disintegrate. First the flood gates open and the clueless come in, driving out the more qualified guys, and after a few months you get little more than exchanges of internet memes. It's quite sad. I think the only way to keep this from happening is to keep a close eye on newly registered users. These days, less than one in four guys get their account activated. This doesn't mean that they're not welcome. They're welcome to browse, but if they want to contribute, they should actually have something to say. With a less strict registration process, the forum could be three or four times as big, but then I surely wouldn't want to visit it myself anymore...

  4. Here are two article written by pornstar Stoya that might interest you and are closely related to the discussion above:

    1. What a spoiled entitled bundle of female laziness and female privilege is she?

      "They ask if they can get my number, they ask where I live, why I’m not smiling, why my boyfriend lets me walk around by myself."

      Let me shed a barrel of crocodile tears for her, bohooooo

      Now, here's the most manipulative and dishonest thing she does in the article.

      Most of her article talks about genuinely horrible crap, stuff I wish my friends would never experience in their life. And if it ever happened to one of my friends, I'd personally beat the shit out of the guy doing it to her.

      So what's the issue? The issue is she is PURPOSEFULLY performing CONFLATION.

      There are three types of sexual harassment

      A) Horrible crap, which is crap no human should do to another, ever (like grabbing a strangers boob, swing a dik in someones face, shoving fingers in someones orifice and other nasty examples she gives)

      B) Unwanted, risky attention-this is when a guy who's not your TYPE makes a risky move in an attempt toward quicker escalation... This one is hypocritical, because if a guy who's her TYPE made those same exact moves, she'd deem it bold and sexy (for example initiating touching forearms, slowly sliding hand toward waist, sexual eye contact, leaning in really close to her face within minutes of talking to her... Etc etc)

      C) Unwanted, courteous attention, this is when a guy who's not your type gather to courage to ask you out after 3 months of knowing it, or the guy who attempts to kiss you on a third date, but you really prefer 4th date kisses (by this definition it's impossible to not harass, because no matter how polite or slow you move, the woman LITERALLY requires TELEPATHY from you)


      She spends 99% of the article illustrating "horrible crap" from the A category, but then she makes it sound like it happens to all women.

      She uses the numbers for category B and C occurrences, but then gives A category examples.

      The truth is that a woman getting an A category experience is as rare as getting mugged on the street... It's no more frequent.

      It's the same conflation feminists use when talking about "violence against women"... When they give stats based on counting crap like "psychological violence" - Psychological violence surveys count as violence things like: calling your girlfriend too often, or not calling her often enough. Or daring to disagree with your wife on her opinions, that was counted as violence. Things like not giving her money for shopping if she asks is also counted as "violence" by those surveys.

      And then they make a poster saying "3 out of 2 women, victims of violence", with an image showing a bloodied woman. but the numbers listed are from the "psych violence" surveys crap.

      Most women whining about sex harassment are entitled lazy ingrates who are sad that its not Brad Pitt hitting on them... It's a VERY conscious manipulation... She knows full well the A category stuff is as rare as muggings (or rarer)... And she knows full well that the frequent stuff that women whine about is just privilege (a not-cute guy dared ask me for my number variety)

      Stoya is a manipulative, entitled bundle of female privilege and laziness.

    2. I believe she does porn? So, what's her excuse?

      "...Before you try to tell me that it’s because I take my clothes off for a living, let me tell you that this started way before I was 18..."

      I like how she doesn't complete her job description "... I take my clothes off for a living...". Reading this you'd think she was a nude model. Yeah love, and you also get fucked in every hole imaginable, possibly by multiple guys at the same time too.

      Not to mention the things that happened to her before she was 18 were likely category B and C from anonymous' list above and with a much lower frequency.

      I digress though...right, what was the discussion again?

    3. Anonymous, is that you Alek? You raised some important issues.

      3agle 3yes, being a pornstar doesn't make harassment OK. Or do you honestly think that being a NERD is reason enough to get beaten up and excuses it? I don't think so.

      Yes, a pornstar does porn. That's tautological. You can even buy a replica of her pussy and use it for your own pleasure: That's not an arguement.

    4. I suspected there might be a reply saying "being a pornstar doesn't make it okay".

      Guess what? Read my comment again, I NEVER said anything was okay. I merely mentioned the fact that she never completed her job description.

      Nerds shouldn't be beaten up but they're more likely to...and so are ponrstars more likely to get touched inappropriately, surely she'd be smart enough to recognise that.

    5. "Anonymous, is that you Alek? You raised some important issues."

      Yes, the first anonymous post with the ABC categorizations was me. I wrote it while travelling, couldn't logon to my account.

      I'll be publishing it with followups and edits on mating selfishness. I don't understand why more men don't call out this crap?

      Everyone fears being called a harassment-apologist, and that's why most men don't point out the BS/entitlement/female laziness inherent in most discussions about harassment.

      It sickens me to which level a lot of women are ingrateful about all the hell they force on men in the courtship arena, as if it were not enough, they spit on them at the same time (sex harassment manipulative rants and distortions are in fact an attack on men, just like fake-distorted DV campaigns are attack on men).


      The characteristics of the average modern female participant in the modern mating sphere...

  5. The sad truth about pick up is that it only gets onlookers when there is a car wreck to see. A scapegoat is randomly chosen (in this case Ken Hoinsky) and rather than accepting him and him alone as the only one responsible for his actions, a witch-hunt begins where readers assume he is an accurate depiction of a group of unspecified numbers.

    I would be hard-pressed to meet anyone who has researched it thoroughly enough to acknowledge the countless wedding invitations the amazing dating coaches receive from guys who did it correctly, and found their future wives as a result.

    Pick up is only taken out of context by mainstream media because when it is practiced correctly, it is far from flashy. Most strangers wouldn’t have a clue if it were taking place. They would only see a man and woman connecting, just as millions of others do.

    I’ve done what many critics have not – judged each person involved in this subculture who I’ve met by their individual merit, and not lumped them in a blob of characterless zombies based on lazy-minded assumptions. That mentality goes a long way no matter what category of people one is considering.

    As for Ken's book - the irony is that its still being published despite that petition. Only difference - now he's basking in the limelight of shameless publicity which will inevitably yield him that much more profit. The only price was dignity, paid not by him, but rather the entire Pick Up World full of genuine people who are now smeared as "rapists".

    1. So, which PUAs do it right, then? In case you haven't been paying attention: the scene has been shrinking for years and the coaches either left or tried repositioning as lifestyle coaches. I do think that my free ebook "Debunking the Seduction Community" played no small role in making guys aware of the bullshit those people tried to peddle.

    2. Oh, and "Pick Up World full of genuine people". What are you smoking?

    3. True, there is garbage out there. Some guys I've met market stuff I'd burn in front of them to prove a point.

      That still does not justify bending over and taking it up the rear for Ken Hoinsky's benefit. So yeah, there are genuine people.

      He's not the poster child of the community.

      And if the feminists and Kickstarter were right, and reading a book is all it takes to create a criminal, I would've committed genocide after reading Mein Kampf.

    4. LOL! Jester, you're a moron. Sleazy will have a field day with you. Can't wait for his reply. But while we wait why don't you mention some of the "genuine people"? You know, dudes who say, "guess what, this PUA crap doesn't work. Don't pay for a boot camp!"


      Well, Sleazy tells you that PUA is shit, but he doesn't do boot camps so I don't know who else there is out there anymore.


      Seriously, Jester, GTFO! The PUA fad is over. You arrived five years after the party ended.

    5. Jester,

      guys like you rather annoy me because people like you, in their infinite smugness, think that everybody else is stupid.

      First, who are the "genuine people" you always refer to. Why don't you mention some names?

      Second, the negative feedback to Tofu Tofu's book was due to what amounts to a recommendation of sexual harassment. This doesn't make you a criminal. However, sexual harassment is a misdemeanor.

      Third, the kind of sexual harassment Tofu Tofu recommends doesn't take much besides a stupid guy with a poor sense of judgment. It's a matter of seconds. Literally anybody could do that. Now compare this to genocide. Even if you wanted to kill all Jews: how would you do it? Yes, you, not some fictional version of you who assembles a private army and becomes the leader of a powerful nation.

      Lastly, referring to books you haven't read and know little else about than twisted mainstream opinions makes you look like a fool. Genocide is not mentioned in Mein Kampf, and Hitler's anti-Jewish stances are primarily based on the influence the Jews had (and have) on mainstream media and finance. In fact, back then and still today, Jews cry "anti-semitism" whenever someone voices objective criticism of their actions. The Jewish press in Weimar Germany called people who questioned the role of the banks as "anti-semitists", just like the state of Israel tries to play the same card whenever someone points some, um, facts about Israeli politics, some of which are nicely summarized here:

    6. This guy is either a troll or a schill. There are no genuine PUAs. The whole system is faulty and designed to step on the naive and the ignorant. I've only had to do one bootcamp from a so called "professional" and that has amounted to nothing, not even today as I type this.

      I also laugh at your statement that guys would invite dating coaches to their weddings. I'm sorry to say this but if a guy meets his dream wife, a dating coach most likely had very little to do with the matter. Sure, he may have inspired confidence in the guy but chances are good there are other reasons as to why the guy landed his dream wife. He may have been extremely wealthy or well connected. Having balls is one thing, but it isn't the silver bullet to landing a 10. Just ask some of those RSD students (PUA students) that have absymal 0.001% lay rates. I wish I could say I was bullshitting the percentage but I really am not.

    7. To THE JESTER:

      I was listening to a podcast where Badboy was talking. He said exactly this, "I'm not doing anymore workshops because 2 or 3 days of training is useless. You cannot change a person within 2 or 3 days. In most case, guys don't need more lines, they need to become a man."

      Sometimes, with age comes wisdom.

      It leads to:

      *Going to mystery workshops is useless
      *Going to RSD free tour or workshops is useless
      *Going to speed seduction seminar is useless
      *Going to vince kelvin workshops is useless
      *Going to love systems workshops is useless

  6. I'm not the most knowledgeable in this "field", but from what I've observed many PUAs don't seem to understand simple human psychology.

    The PUA audience largely consists of men who have childhood scars involving people in general (especially girls/women).

    So the first and most obvious thing to do is CHANGE the way they THINK of people (again, especially girls/women).

    This doesn't seem to happen because PUAs advocate "picking up" girls/women and constantly talks about them in forums, blogs, webistes, books etc.

    This inevitably leads to unhealthy behaviors.

    Most fat people trying to lose weight or "diet fanatics" don't realize slim people aren't always healthy.

    The average person doesn't realize people with millions in the bank aren't always wealthy.

    ...and those in the PUA community don't realize guys who fuck a lot aren't always "men".

    1. wow, I really enjoyed this reply, thanks. Last three lines really get the point across

  7. Tried to read some of her tumblr ... wtf.
    I hate it when women/feminists say "don't judge me".
    Most of the time, nobody is judging them. What they really want is everybody to "you go girl" them and validate them by telling them whatever they're doing is good/right.
    Not to mention the fact that women judge everybody/everything much more than men do.


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