Thursday, October 1, 2015

The Open Thread: October 2015

Since I get a relatively high number of comments that are tangential to the articles, I'd like to try to move those parts of the conversation to the monthly 'Open Thread'.

In short, it you think anything you're going to write is "off topic" to the current post, but still related to pickup, women, gender politics and other topics I discuss on this blog, then please leave a comment to the most recent Open Thread, such like this one. Just post below.

Thank you.


  1. I've gotten a few concerned emails, so let me state this publicly: Yes, I'm still alive. Yes, there will be more material in the future, i.e. more blog posts, and hopefully another book sometime soon as well. I'm currently very busy with real life, though.

    1. Hard to believe this is 2015:

      I thought Vince Kelvin was on life support/brain dead/comatose or something...

    2. OMG I couldn't resist laughing when I saw that picture of Vince Kelvin and the girls he brought for his students. He looks as bad and ridiculous as usual (maybe even worse) and the chicks look like, well, trashy drag-queens, not to mention that one of them is obese. If Vince got his 230 makeouts with girls of that caliber in 2011, I am definitely not jealous and neither would be anyone in his right mind.

      That Nick Hawk guy is very attractive, but he's probably teaching people that his "techniques" bring him success with women and not his looks.

      And just lol at the narrator who almost gets a girl at the end of the article but leaves when she wants a kiss, because... Well, just because. But "the PUA technique worked, though".

  2. Glad to hear you are still alive. What is the topic of your next book?

    I am curious what you guys think of the hook-up culture described in this article: Maybe it is because I don't live in a city as big as NY or London, but my feeling was that the article exaggerates a bit here and there. A young investment banker banging 100 new girls in one year? Last time I checked young investment bankers are perennially exhausted from the long hours they work.

    1. It suffers from the usual apex fallacy. It only looks at the top 1% of people and how they do. It is once again one of those alarmist 'The world is going to end, cats and dogs living together' articles. Just ignore it, it is overblown bs.

    2. Articles like that are almost complete bullshit, as they are a mixture of anecdotes, exaggerations, marketing, and wishful thinking. The bit about the young investment bankers is complete nonsense, i.e. it is either extremely exaggerated or entirely made up. I don't know much of this world, but I know enough to know that you very quickly reach the point where money stops being an issue for you, but, as you rightly stated, spare time will be. Thus, the consequential choice is paying for an escort because a few hundred dollars carry about the same weight as, say, a couple of bucks for Joe Average when he buys a menu at McDonalds. The mere thought that someone pulling down a few hundred thousand a year would sit in a bar, drink with his buddies, and swipe on Tinder is downright ludicrous.

    3. I also knew a few employees of investment banks, and they made good money but worked absolutely crazy hours. It tends to be a frenetic lifestyle and recreation usually involved hookers and blow, not tinder or even normal dates.

  3. Hm. Looks like I'm going to get this ball rolling.

    Hi Sleazy,

    I'm a 20 year old male, 6'2, currently in Uni. When I was in school, I was thin, not at all athletic. I didn't have much trouble with girls at all, although I was shy. Unfortunately, I wanted to bulk up for football and I took this to the extreme, embracing a no-life bodybuilder lifestyle. (I hate bodybuilding but became too caught up in training and eating)

    By no exaggeration, I grew HUGE in 2 years, to the point where I realized I had completely screwed myself over in the girl department because although I had muscles, I gained a significant amount of fat, losing my jawline, abs, etc. Been told from multiple girls I looked 'scary'.

    I'm a lot more confident now, can talk to girls and strangers/randoms no problem compared to my earlier years. What didn't help was that I took a prescription drug at 15 that caused major depression problems that I now have sorted thanks to a therapist. It was a long road that nearly killed me (literally).

    I'm still a virgin, and this does bother me slightly, though not as much now as I'm working harder towards losing it, but more importantly feeling like I'm finally in control of this aspect of my life because I don't have much experience.

    I'm working on getting down to 8% - 10% bodyfat, so far I'm 11kg down and am much better looking. Around 15% right now, maybe a little lower. I'm also thinking about signing up for online dating, which I have tried before, but I was a complete pussy and barely messaged any girls. Went on 1 date, didn't work out. You'll also probably think that this is a limiting belief, but I'm hesitant to be proactive in setting up social situations i.e, going out because I want to focus on losing the remaining bodyfat. I'm well aware how important looks are, and to be honest I think I'm a great looking guy, but still want to get it handled first so I'm above average.

    I've read your minimal game, which is a great read that is down to earth and...refreshing compared to all the PUA 'game' bullshit online.

    Is there any advice you can give me to help my dating life? Anything I should do further? I know you don't think much of online dating, but Tinder looks promising as uni will be finished in 5-6 weeks. I'm going on a binge.

    Any general advice you have to give would be much appreciated. Also, if you came this far, thanks for taking the time to read.

    1. Minimal Game contains enough information to get you started, so follow that advice and don't obsess about losing another few percent of body fat. 15 % is already a very good value.

    2. Just to agree with Aaron and expand. Going below 15% has little ROI for you at this point. It does have little advantages, but only if you've handled everything else.

      If you have everything else going (finances, lifestyle, super confident at flirting, escalating, lots of female friends), then getting even leaner might be something to focus on.

      But don't make the mistake of postponing life to "get leaner first". Think of it as the last thing to do after you handle everything else.

    3. Can you expound upon this...

      I've always assumed that when you gents talk about being in shape to be 8%-10% body fat....anything beyond that to focus on losing the body fat

      When you talk about people losing weight, you are more referring the "dad bod" crowd at 25%-30% ? (pardon my stupidity, my sometimes concepts need to be spelled out)

      Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on getting a good body, at 6'3 and mythodically going from 18% to 12% body fat

    4. Dude, you're trying to make excuses not to go out and talk to women. The difference in body fat between 8, 10 or 15% with clothes on is negligible. Even with your clothes off it doesn't make much of a difference because you'll look appealing enough that some women will want to see you naked --- and the difference between a 'four pack' and a sixpack may, frankly, not even be worth the effort.

    5. Different bodylevels make a difference with women, but it works out like this...

      - The difference between 30% and 20% is noticeable.

      - There's a moderate difference between being 20% and being 15%

      - There's a modest difference between being 15 and 12% (at 15 you're "fit") vs (at 12% you get a four pack and defined arms)

      - There's a negligible difference* between being 12% and being 8% (four pack vs six-pack)

      *- That's because you don't walk around naked. Being 8% might make a moderate difference if you only meet girls on the beach or something. In clothes (even tanktops), the two are very similar.... and probably makes no difference.

      (I am talking out of experience btw, not some internet theorizer, I've been at all of these levels)...

      - The most you'd want to bother with if you're lacking in other areas is getting to 15%

      - Only think about going below 15% if everything else is handled

      (Do you meet and flirt with 50-60 new girls a month? Are you at ease moving things forward from flirting onwards? Are you generally at a good point with other areas in life? then it might be worth bothering about going below 15%... otherwise its just an excuse to not work on other areas where you're lacking).

      Heck, even if you were 30% its not recommended that you postpone flirting. You can be an obese flirt. It's ok. Flirting doesn't oblige you to going further. You can be the obese friendly guy. You can work on lifestyle even while you're obese and losing weight at the same time. If you're obese, you can work on weightloss and all these other areas at the same time.

      But going below 15 is a TON OF WORK. You literally have to become a hermit and do NOTHING ELSE. I'd only undertake that venture if you achieved all your other goals.

      P.S (clarification for anyone that misunderstands)

      The above is a discussion about bodyfat, not muscle size, which is a different topic.

      Ofcourse, if one doesn't have muscle at all. They can (and should) start lifting at any point and it will make a difference.

      A 15% guy with decent muscle will be a ton more attractive than a 10% guy with no muscle. (most people know this, just clarifying for the sake of completeness)

      The above recommendation about "don't worry about bf if other areas are lacking - doesn't mean "don't lift weights until you handle everything else in life. You can start lifting weights at any point.

    6. Cheers for the feedback. As is, I'm pleased I have this close to handled and do really have to work on getting out there. Have to admit it has held me back significantly in the past (though I'm no recluse). It made me doubt myself too many times.

    7. TL;DR Version:

      - If you're not lifting weights, start now, whatever your situation in other areas of life

      - If you're above 20% bodyfat, you can split your focus between weight-loss and working on other areas of life, but don't make the mistake of being a hermit "I'll only leave the house once I reach a certain bodyfat"...

      Remember, you can be the chubby, funny, social cool friend that the hot girls have. Not being lean enough is no excuse for postponing the building of a lifestyle. Feel free (if you must) to postpone hitting on women until you're no longer fat, but there's no excuse to not socialize and flirt with them in the meantime, you can do this on any weight level.

      And below 20% you're no longer fat, so there's no excuse to not make sexual moves either...

      - Only think about purposefully going below 15% if
      A) You have a decent muscle mass
      B) All your other areas of life are solid, and pretty much on auto-pilot

    8. Alek can you expand upon this?

      "Do you meet and flirt with 50-60 new girls a month? Are you at ease moving things forward from flirting onwards?"

      Isn't this a rather high number? I feel that at this point it's my biggest working area, so I would like to see you expand upon this.

      I also heared you talking about being the friendly chubby guy. I have a question about girls who've friendzoned you, or who arn't into you sexually and are in your social circle. Do you keep hanging out with them in order to meet new people through their social circle? Or do you call it quits and just keep things friendly but don't look for any specific contact with her?

      I'm curious to hear you're take on this because my issue right now is meeting a bigger quantity of women and also striking the iron when it's hot when it comes to flirting. My biggest issue has been waiting too long.

    9. It's much better to hit on 50+ women per month and quickly figure out if they are interested in you than hitting on 5-10 women where you make social small talk first and then after a while you show your interest.

      It's much better for your peace of mind to nip everything in the bud and focus on the only few women that will keep interacting with you after you made your sexual advances.

      Also if you don't show sexual interest early, you will be more afraid to show it after a while because you will think "it would be a shame to ruin everything now that I got her number and that I'm talking to her regularly on the phone".

      Most of my interaction don't even last more than 2 minutes. So hitting on 50 women per month is quickly reached.

    10. @Geert - Flirting with 50 girls a month is not that much. If you have hobbies, social circles and go out... That's just 4-5 girls per outting. I'm including

      Notice, I'm talking about "flirting"... not "cold approaching". I wouldn't advise cold-approaching 50-60 girls a month (as a goal).

      Like if I go out to a party in my niche, I know at least 20 people there. If I walk up to their tables, and each of them has a girl I've only said hello to before, or is a new girl (their sister, cousin, neighbour)... that's 20 girls (potentially) I can flirt with that I haven't flirted with before and are NOT a cold approach. Notice I said "flirt", not "hit on". And that's just a single outting. I meet acquintances with their friends when I do shopping, go to the mall to fetch something, etc etc...

      To clarify:

      I was making the point that he should focus on building a lifestyle where its normal and he gets to flirt with 40-60 girls a month WITHOUT going out of his way to do it. Not suggesting one go out of his way to find 60 random girls each month, lol.

      I get to chat with that many new girls in a month, and I don't go out of my way to do it. After I say hello to all the acquintances, I just find its normal to ask the people at the next table "how's it going, how you enjoying the place, music etc"... Sometimes I end up saying something to 10-15 girls in place without giving it a single conscious thought.

    11. @Anonymous

      Notice, the conversaion here isn't about getting laid. It's about not making excuses. The point isn't "what's the fastest way to get laid".

      The point here is "don't use unideal circumstances as an excuse to do NOTHING". The point is, even if you have a belief you're not hot enough to bang chicks, don't use that as an excuse to not practice social skills or flirting skills (at least).

      It's not saying "only flirt and don't escalate". It's saying AT LEAST practice the one if you can't the other. Sometimes its better to do the thing closer to your comfort zone (convince yourself to go out and practice small talk)... then to block yourself by setting a goal too high (I must escalate in 2 minutes despite believing i am too ugly to be liked by any girl with this bodyfat).

      Make sense?

    12. Thanks for the clarifications Alek.

      I have to say that does seem doable. Lately, I've been living a bit like a hermit off course :), but when I use your way of describing it, it makes sense.

      It's also a much healthier and more long term solution then trying to do it through cold approach.

    13. and reading alek for a while, alek normal "i meet 234 a month without going out if my way".
      not everyone will have a lifestyle where they meet so much women, and say you want things, not always it will lead to lifestyle where you can meet a lot of women, even if you are succesful at getting them.
      alek your lifestyle (meeting celebs in your country on regular basis)
      is not something we can get easily, and simply doing it to meet more women is going out of ones own way.
      and also i dont enjoy socializing with girls, its boring and girls are crazy.
      ah, surely it can be fine you if meet a cool chick, but thats too rare.
      i just want to fuck them. i am more like marco. but dont have his ballz.
      and i too dont meet 40 new girls a month without out of my way.

    14. Actually I'm pretty asocial. I just happen to have hobbies that involve people and make a habit to greet everyone, then greet everyone in their group, then when I meet that acquintance of an acquintance somewhere I greet them too... and then say hello to their friends too. And then saying hi to the people at the next people is much easier (feels more natural, and not contrived/cold).

      I'm not a social butterfly who's popular and super-friendly with everyone. Just a greeting and wassup... That's it. For fucks sake, I can't even make small-talk.

      I don't think greeting people and saying hi to the people they're with is a huge investment. And I much prefer it to cold-approaching which is soul destroying and unduly rewards women.

      After I filled up a certain quota of lays in my life, I decided to never again put in effort in getting laid. I'd rather put in "effort" in greeting and saying hi to people (which gives me access to hundreds of semi-warm approaches), then the effort required in busting through cold-defenses (which are always higher).

  4. Nothing wrong with building muscle but you do have to watch your diet.
    Tinder or online dating is an option, but you might want to take up other hobbies and social events so you could meet more women. You can do this while continuing to lose weight.

  5. I know you have better things to do, but have you checked out Roosh V and Return of Kings sites recently? From what I can gather those guys are pretty much done with pick-up artistry and more focused on the politics and current problems. The most bizarre thing is that, the whole Rooshosphere seems to be turning into Kremlin mouthpiece: long articles praising Putin as the "last guardian of the traditional values" (LOL) and calling Russia "new home for neomasculine men". The forum is even worse: the guys there act like Putin is some kind of messiah or masculine alpha god. I doubt any of them have even read a book about Russia or Putin, much less traveled there. The whole thing would have been funny, had it not been so hypocritical and contradictory. They pretty much castigated Canadian feminists for encroaching on their right to free speech and yet they approve of country where journalists and opposition party leaders are being shot left and right for speaking their minds. What the actual hell?!

    1. I'm vaguely aware of that development. It's pretty absurd. Then again, it's easier to maintain your cognitive dissonance with regards to politics than, say, maintaining your self-image of an alleged player. I guess the average Roosh follower can only not get laid for so long until he realizes that something doesn't quite add up.

    2. While I don't agree with the overall tone of the specific forums the anonymous above has mentioned, I think his worldview is highly biased. In my humble opinion, Putin is the only real humanterian who actually did something useful to stop the refugee crisis. Unfortunately, a lot of people can't see that and believe all this crap in the western media. The anon above should pick up a book himself that explains to him how those things work in the real world. I would recommend "Blowback" by Chalmers Johnson.

    3. I know this blog has nothing to do with politics, but calling a guy who killed AT LEAST 30,000 Chechen civillians "a real humanitarian" is nothing short of cynical travesty. Also, the last time I checked, Putin has not yet stopped the refugee crisis and he, in all, could not give a rat's ass about Syrian refugees-his main goal is to somehow keep his ally Assad in power-that's it.
      And while the Western media is definitely biased, it is a beacon of objectivism compared to Russian RT and NTV.

    4. Holy crap, dude, you called it. Those ROK crazies are saying that Putin is the new "proto-tsar" of Russia now(whatever that means) and some of commenters are actually labelling him the "last hope of mankind". I honestly beginning to doubt if some of them are actually real life paid Kremlin agents. Nobody can be this stupid. Hell, they are even praising that nutjob "philosopher" Dugin, whose ideas are pretty much fascist nonsense. The manosphere is truly losing it.

  6. Aaron, what do you think about some guys obsession with lay count ?

    I find it pretty ridiculous anybody that still wants to count the number of girls he fucked when he has reached 50 girls.

    I know some guys that still are insecure about their lay count when they are above 50. They still think they didn't fuck enough women and that's all they think about all day long. And they just put in too much effort just to fuck more and more women.

    What's your opinion on this ?

  7. I'd say past 15 to 20, you should already care much less about numbers.

    Guys who are fairly experienced have already moved on from trying to bang whatever chicks to finding the most appealing prospects. They turn down girls who are even ready to fuck them, and instead screen girls who are into some of the kinky shits that they have in their minds, aka screening girls for their sexual preference.

    That being said, past 10-20 and most faces will blur in your mind.

    Laycount matters initially because you need to experience enough sexual variability to own your masculinity and sense of entitlement. Later on, most guys just focus on reducing their investments for highest returned benefits.

    1. Yep, even counting till 50 is still too much in my opinion. Personally I will stop counting after 40.

      I think too that quantity is important in the beginning to build experience, but after a certain number it becomes purely validation-seeking. And it's pretty ridiculous.

  8. Gee, all those guys worrying about lay count... I'm 25 old and I'm still a virgin, lol.

    Some people have mocked me for still being a virgin. I spent all my life as a fat kid who never went to parties or anything social because I was raised by an overbearing grandmother and a very dense mother. I was bullied and because of all that, I grew with zero self-esteem. Sure, I was complimented by adults on how "smart" I was, but never had any friends (especially female friends). In college I started losing weight and I noticed that many people, including the girls I knew, gave me a better treatment (even if I was still being an awkward mess). I started to realize that all this bullshit about "inner beauty" is made to protect the ego of weak minded individuals.Girls always advise unsuccesful guys to "lower their standards", but I've NEVER, EVER heard about a girl who's told the same thing.

    People have complimented my looks, but I don't feel that they're good enough. I admit I have a lot of social anxieties, but when I discovered the ugly side of human mating, I just became so dissappointed that I just gave up with women.It looks like an uphill struggle. I think that the best (and the only) thing I can do now is work and save my earnings to get a nice PC to start playing CS:GO.

    1. If there's one thing I've learned from Aaron Sleazy it's to constantly improve yourself as best you can to be above average.

      You can't change genetics, but you can do your best to change what can be changed. I was never really fat, but like you I understand the barrier a little extra tub creates with attraction. Continue working on your appearance - work on gaining a bit of muscle (read; don't get huge) and lower your bodyfat significantly. Your facial features will be brought out significantly as an added bonus to being in great shape, which gives you the best chance with girls (in general). Get a stylish haircut with a bit of edge that suits your face. Learn what looks good to wear.

      Don't give up with women. You've had a bad start, but it's in the past now, and because you've had a bit of a bad past in this area, it doesn't mean that you're forever doomed now. What happened in the past doesn't define what is to come.

      I too got off to a bad start. Also, I'm no expert, but accept every opportunity that comes your way, with talking to girls, and PEOPLE in general. Work on being a social guy as much as you can. Things don't just come to people as much as it seems that way.

      The worse thing you can do is give up and take up counter strike and wittle away your days playing with pale Russian nerds who haven't grown up yet. The problem won't go away and you'll be in the same mindset. It's a distraction preventing you from improving if you take it up for more than a few hours a week and ignore what you need to work on.

      In regard to the anxieties you have, not to scare you, but consider seeing a psychologist to help get any underlying issues sorted out. I know several people who have used them, young and old (myself included). Don't underestimate how much this can help. Following stranger's advice on the internet can waste a lot of time and not necessarily get you anywhere.

      Never stop working on yours looks and talking to women and people.

      Truly wish you all the best, I'd be glad if this helped you in any way.

    2. I lost my virginity when I was 28. Had my first kiss at 27. So, 25 is not that bad. Let me tell you this, nobody's going to fix shit for you, because nobody gives a fuck about you, okay? :-) Now you know everything and it's time to rock n roll.

      Dr. Poo Aah.

  9. Neil Strauss admits 'creating attraction' is most likely backwards rationalizing and a placebo: “I think that a lot of guys who read The Game, they think that they’re fooling or tricking women. But most women are smart enough to know exactly what you’re doing. They just might like you enough to go along with it. I think one of the misconceptions is that someone else can be tricked into doing something they don’t want to. ... A lot of it was about men’s own fears. A technique to end up making out? You’re not going to make out with someone who doesn’t want to make out with you. It was more about being terrified of rejection, and getting over that. The techniques got him there. Not her.”

    The full interview with The Guadian

    1. It was a nice article and having read the Game, and various things about Mystery and Tyler it was nice to see Strauss finally got "religion" so to speak, and has a functional life. Frankly, the Game did not really reveal much about "game" per se and was more an account of the highly fucked up people in the pick up artist community. It takes a fair bit of guts in my opinion to write a follow up book about realizing he had problems to begin with, and he had made himself worse, and then fixing himself after the smoke cleared.

      Frankly, the quote above is an excellent rebuttal to the endless nonsense about how you can turn a woman's "No" into a "Yes" though some magical combination of verbal and psychological gymnastics.

    2. Yet in 2015 some guys STILL believe there's a method for "creating attraction". In some imageboard in spanish I posted the links of Debunking the Seduction Industry and Johnny's Story, and some guys were like, "nah dude, that's just bullshit, re-read the whole thing and you'll see it", "I've tried MM and it worked", etc. Most of them just torrent'd those books but they truly believe that MM gave them results, but ignore that:
      -Most of them are from Spain or Latin America, and their culture is a lot diferent than the culture in the USA
      -Don't see the placebo effect in PUA
      I don't follow that PUA bullshit, and I bet I've more success than those asshats who're totally buyed up by the PUA drivel.

    3. I find it hilarious how Strauss has always managed to present himself as a critic, and had people view The Game as a cautionary tale, while simultaneously running StyleLifeAcademy that was textbook MM. Unsurprisingly, this interview goes in with his new book and method for "becoming a better man". This guy will always be a rat.

  10. I'm not promoting "Game" so to speak and based on what I have seen cases like these where a much slimmer more attractive looking girl goes out with a much fatter guy but when it does occur what is usually the reason when money and or status are not a factor? Self Esteem issues in the more attractive member of the pair perhaps?

    1. It seems they didn't even fuck...

      “Since I was young, (like many other little girls) I dreamed about who I would end up with. Once I gave my life to Christ and saw examples of Godly marriages and relationships, I wanted that. God saw the desires of my heart and gave me Christopher. He brings me closer to God through prayer, and his love. I know God will use us both for awesome things because we make a great team!”

    2. Also note that it's not necessarily visible if the guy has money. Some dude could be dressed like a slob and be a multimillionaire. The converse is also true: you can go to a posh club and see plenty of broke guys in expensive clothes.

    3. "Ashley is speaking publicly about this experience, and how her bond of affection and trust with Christopher became even stronger."
      Ah, a love so strong you have to write a book about it. Just like that wheelchair PUA and his wife (don't know his name, don't care enough to look it up).

      Dude, this smells fishy as hell and from so many different angles, don't waste a second thinking about it.

    4. Well, sounds like the lovely couple are religious, so that does tend to lead people to rationalize a lot of questionable decisions as the individuals think this what they are "supposed" to do. Her comments kind of remind me of the sort of things guys hear when they land in the friend zone. Beauty is sort of in the eye of the beholder, so it could be this guy hit the jackpot with a girl that happens to be in to this kind of look, though this is not the norm.

  11. Heh, I just had a debate with an asshat that claimed that "u just need great personality to get babez, doode". His basis was the typical argument of " i know dis guy who iz fugly as fuk but he scorez chikz laik krazy men". He never talked about PUA and shit like that, but the basis were there: entertain them, make them laugh and then they will spread their legs to you. I told him about how money and social status/power trumps everything, that looks are also important too, and that in real life, personality is not as important as many people claim. And then he went full butthurt, you know: "you don't know shit", " you're just a bitter asshole", "i bet your still a virgin". And also he said he wouldn't like to have girls just for his money, and he was against escorts. I knew he just went full retarded at this point.
    At the end, his brain had a meltdown, and then tried to bail out the discusion, saying that "he was bored of arguing with a rtard", that "he accually is a rich guy but his personality does the job" and that I was "some sore loser who plays League of Legends". I couldn't do anything but laugh at the end.

    1. Trying to point out the flaws with PUA belief system to someone who has drank the cool aid usually plays out the same way as pointing out to a child that Santa Claus is not real. You are probably going to get hit with a lot of poor arguments and then denial and/or anger. The truth will set you free but it will not necessarily make you happy.

  12. You see this kind of counter-argument all the times:
    " A fat slob I have seen are just walking side by side with this thin beauty, what the hell is the deal with fat guys, do girls like them now, he doesn't seem to have money, nor fame, nor popularity, so what is the deal?"

    Well, the deal is it is highly that they hardly have any sexual relationship between them. The naïveté of these guys are just incredible.

    Here, we only ask you guys to use see things from your own perspective: If you are a fairly muscular attractive guy, would you ever agree to enter into a sexual relationship with a fat girls? No! So do women.

    For men, all that count is physical attractiveness.
    For women, all that count is that and economic resources.

    That's the end of the story.

    1. That's true and I think we could have an interesting debate.

      Here people are always claiming that to get girls you need LMS (Looks - Money - Status). But I would be even more "pessimistic" and say that your looks matter for 100% and the rest is just useless.

      I'm not saying money or status will not get you wives. It sure does. But these girls are not attracted to you. So what's the point ? Most of guys that have M+S are still losers anyway (I mean they are submissive pussies and they don't take care of their looks) and they will not try to get into the woman's pants. And when they finally have sex, the girl will not be into it. The dude will have shitty sex. All this fuss for nothing.

      If the girl is not attracted to you (= looks), everything is pointless. Better go to the prostitutes, no ?

    2. "Well, the deal is it is highly that they hardly have any sexual relationship between them. The naïveté of these guys are just incredible."

      I just wanted to post sth and then I saw your post. It fits very well.

      Check this out:
      RSD always good for a laugh, the present their new instructor: a fat dude, and then in the video you see some "action", like chicks around that dude.

      Now look closely, only half-ass sh*t going on between them. Every girls energy is saying "haha nice and funny, but I ain't fuckin' this guy".

      Not sure what's more hilarious, the fat dude, or the comments below, already worshipping the fat dude for his skills...

      Show em dude, hahaaha

      ad that only to promote his probably USD 6000 oot camp in Vegas or some shit...

      I can't believe I used to watch these guys' videos and think I know sth the rest of the world did not know... I stopped and since then I feel way better.

      May lay count is 16, which is probably sixteen times higher than anybody of the whole rsd crew, except we count them fucking each other in the ass as lays, The they beat me for sure.

      Hilarious this gang, just hilarious.

    3. For men, all that count is physical attractiveness.
      i will add that how nice is a woman, and how tolerable she is , also does matter.
      if she is too crazy and hot as fuck, you dont bother.

    4. That's VERY true lazylife. Her household skills (cooking, cleaning, etc., etc.) how good of a mother she would make, also play a role in a long term commitment, but being attractive and easy to get along is plenty to get most women by. Most guys don't even seem to care that much what she does for a job, if she even has one. Even if you were to boast to your friends how you landed a lawyer or doctor, they'd still say, "Pics?"


    Proof attraction can be created. RSD proves it on video

    inb4 fake.

  14. Wrong Isidia, like men, women have preferences. Some like banging husky/fat guys. Just like some good looking dudes bang/marry land whales. Nature is not one sided. Nature is always experimenting. Yes, in the middle of the curve, we see your representation as the majority. But there are always the tails on these curves, beginning and end.

  15. Hey Sleazy,

    In your book 'Minimal Game' you deny that there is a skill-set to getting women and that there is 'no secret behind it'. In one of your blog posts, ''Cold approaching is useless'' you give the imperssion that cold approach is a bad way to meet women. Now i already feel this old tiring dreaded proximity vs. cold approach debate coming up (just like looks vs. game). But okay, ill get to the point. In your short seduction article on your forum you say that 'getting laid is a skill that can be learned.' These two statements are complete contradictions. No skill set but you gotta go out 24/7 to 'train and improve'? I was always a fan of your work and i agree with a lof of stuf that you write, but for the first time Aaron you're posting two completely different viewpoints that just don't fit into one image.

    The links to these contradicting documents i will provide here:

    1. Same guy as before. Well, think really hard about what I mean when I speak of "skills" in the context of those sources, and what your typical PUA gurus try to sell you as "skills". You may realize that there is an enormous difference. I'm not interested in arguing about semantics. Further, I consider it rather dishonest to quote from a forum post I hastily wrote well before I published any books, and claim that this would constitute a contradiction because it doesn't match 100 % with what I wrote in a book years later, even though the spirit (!) of both the book and that post is the very same.

    2. Its pretty sumple dude. There's no contradiction if you understand one fundamental principle of non-puas... it goes as

      "You can't create attraction, you can only adjust and work around whatever exists"

      - PUAs sell the idea of "skills that create attraction"
      - NonPua dating experts merely teach you dating & social skills that assume attraction is static.

      Even when attraction is a static factor (and it is) - there's still a skill to for example knowing exactly when to approach, exactly when to make a move, when its time to ask her to come with you.

      For example there's a skill to how to talk to her so you don't make her feel easy/slutty in front of her friends, yet be flirtateous enough so as to show interest (its a skill and a balancing act)...

      Here's the difference from PUAs.

      A PUA will tell you that what you said "boosted her attraction".
      A non-pua will tell you that what you said "helped her admit her pre-exiting attraction"

      Do you understand the difference?

    3. Hi Alek. Do you know of any good honest non-pua dating coaches around the NYC area where a guy can learn the "skills" you describe above and will give you feedback on what you might be doing wrong?

    4. I have to call BS on a part of my own post. I carried away and actually placed pua-style lingo in there:

      "exactly when to approach, exactly when to make a move"

      There's no "exact" time to do anything. That's just me subconciously channeling leftover pua-marketer speak.

      And hence, this brings up another difference between puas and non-puas.

      - PUA marketers will fear-monger you that there's a correct, exact way to do things, and unless you do it, all hell breaks loose.

      - Whereas someone like Aaron will helpfully inform you that in all honesty, if a girl's into you, she will generally be flexible. It's not like if you ask for a date in one way, she'll totally lose all interest, and ask another way and she falls in love with ya (as pua marketers would have you believe).

      There is a skill to not doing it completely idiotically, but it's more of a range in what's statistically more likely to not turn her off/scare her off - rather than "exact sentence to say to cause exact response from her".

    5. Thanks to both of you for your replies. Admitted that being a little inexperienced myself, i've wasted a good amount of time as a lurker of various PUAs. Although i was never a hardcore fanboy of any particular company, i had this gut feeling that something about the community was off. Another part of me, however, wondered if there was such a thing as a ''skill set'', as in: By displaying the right behaviours, verbals, sending out the right vibe etc. you can get women into bed.

      I believe that is possible, but there's a HUGE but. I tend to think women are just as superficial as men in many ways, and upon seeing a guy they can make up their minds quite quickly whether they want to fuck him or not. However, since she as a female rarely displays the active role and deals with other shit like her image / sluttiness / etc. the skill set you guys talk about is knowing how to deal with these things, combined with basic not being a total social fucktard. Really, if females are selectors in the mating domain agreeing to you guys, doesn't this mean that all this shit is predetermined and all the guy gotta do is be sexual and don't fuck it up?

      I find it beyond stupid that PUAs sell their audience the idea of things like status, popularity and ESPECIALLY looks being no factor at all. From a marketing perspective it's smart to say this, considering the gullible audience that PUAs attract. Hey, they want to be told what they want right? I think the key to getting a lot of women is to build yourself up as a man in those important key areas of social status/skills/looks/physique and simply take a proactive effort to meet women. No need to make it as complicated as the PUAs do.

      Companies like RSD for example have hundreds and hundreds of video's with hours of content for various instructors, no wonder guys get confused about it when they make pickup seem like a rocket science that requires years of hard study. Thoughts?

    6. I also apologize for posting the same question twice, but under different names. This was due to a computer crash that made me think i lost my post without submitting it. Wasn't the case, even though i typed it again thinking it was.

    7. Yep, if you make a "dangerous" move :

      - a girl that doesn't like you will stop you and go away/never contact you again

      - a girl that likes you (but has some issues with being sexual early) will stop you but she will happily stay around you and will keep wanting to see you despite your risky move

      When the girl likes you, it's almost impossible to fuck up.

      For example, I am very sexually aggressive and try to make out within the first 5 minutes with each girl. I get 3 reactions :

      - dumb cunts that wanted to extract some resources from me (attention, a drink, a dinner, a doormat-boyfriend, etc.) get angry and immediately leave the interaction hating me

      - girls that are attracted to me but don't want to be sexual too early refuse the makeout (or accept the makeout but no more) but are still happily around me and eventually I will fuck her (I had a girl I made out with in the street within 5 minutes of approaching her, yet she only allowed me to fuck her on second date because first date was too soon)

      - girls that are attracted to me and have no problem with being sexual early make out with me and we fuck soon after (when we have logistics)

    8. Companies like RSD for example have hundreds and hundreds of video's with hours of content for various instructors, no wonder guys get confused about it when they make pickup seem like a rocket science that requires years of hard study. Thoughts?

      That's on purpose.

  16. Hey Sleazy,

    I've found two posts from you that are very contradictory.
    Here's the links to them:

    You tell guys that getting laid is a 'skill set' that can be LEARNED. And that the way to get good is to go out a lot, hit on chicks constantly and eventually you will 'train yourself' and 'get better at it.'
    You call yourself a game denialist, yet isn't this what all mainstream PUA companies that are so fond of 'game' preach? What about proximity and general self-improvement?

    Yet in your other blog article, you bash cold approach saying that it's useless. So on the one side you tell guys to improve their 'skills' by cold approaching and going out but on the other side you say cold approach doesn't work or is a bad way to meet women. You also state that online game or warm approach is too 'safe and low-risk' to be really valuable to learn from. Isn't that a complete contradiction?

    1. Dude, the problem lies in indiscriminately approaching women. Further, I very heavily stress that "game" is mostly over by the time you open your mouth because your foundations, as I call it, have such an enormous effect. Very little of my writing focuses on "skills". Maybe read some more, and with an open mind, before jumping to conclusions. Besides, we have had this discussion, in a much more nuanced way, on both this blog and the forum, so please do your homework in case you want to respond.

  17. I came across this absolutely fantastic video, from a different context, but totally applicable to everything dating related.

    She talks about fetishization of entrepreneurship in an African context, and says, Africa can't out-entprenreneur around basic problems. The idea in dating is similar. You cannot out-game basic problems like social skills, lifestyle, looks etc.

  18. I saw this and I wanted to share it with you guys

  19. I wonder how long until we'll start hearing horror stories from the manosphere about marrying women from third-world countries. I found this article funny but also likely the truth for most of the manosphere,

    In a few years time, I suspect we'll hear some nasty stuff about how their wives only seemed to be interested in them to obtain their American citizenship and once they received it, they couldn't wait to get rid of them, get the man they really wanted, and get half their assets. Not saying it happens all the time, but I think some of these manosphere guys are in a for a rude awakening.

  20. I'm 6'3" and about 265. I don't want to date at my size and people telling me "some girls like a big teddy bear" doesn't make me feel good about myself. Being compared to a football player, a cop, or a soldier only makes me feel worse. I don't want to date a girl who wants some big protector type. I can't fix my height, but I can lose weight if I want to...and I don't think it's a good idea for me to date now considering how I feel about myself.

    I learned about this site through the baldness angle. I lost my hair early and it's been useful reading some intelligent thoughts about it other than "just get big bro" or "looks don't matter" or "some rich celeb is bald and still gets girls." It helps because I admit I often get into the loser mentality of "I'm bald, therefore I'm ugly and can never date." Reading such pessimism from others makes me see how I must sound to others. I feel bad for them, but even I, who is totally sympathetic to balding guys, started to get annoyed (like people felt about me).

    Though I've enjoyed what I read, I wonder if I'm in the wrong place. While I like the tough, honest approach to what men and women want, sex is not as high a priority for me than companionship is. I don't want one-night stands, I want an equal. I'm not saying it's wrong for guys to crave sex, but that's just not who I am.

    I'm hoping that if I lose enough weight (I want to get below 200 lbs), I'll see myself as dateable and not a third-class citizen.

    1. are you joking me?
      you want to take your height down?

      you got height on your side with women, short guys treated like shit.
      your height is perfect, on the weight side you are probably right.

      ah by the way you should have a lot of experience with women, including one night stands if you want to have a chance to meet what you want. because successful experience will be important in detecting the chick and making moves on her.


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