Tuesday, February 14, 2012

There is a Vince Kelvin in every gamer!

Many people seemed to love my recent mockery of Vince Kelvin. However, I was more than surprised at the level of cognitive dissonance in this "communit". One of the commenters wrote:
The funny part is that there are many guys who are just as deluded as VK, but don't realize it. I was reading a post by Roosh fans, and they were mocking VK... They were saying "oh, when people mock us and our super magical game powers, they're really mocking VK" Those guys are actually just as deluded as VK, but think they're unlike him.
So, let me spell it out for the cognitive dissonance crowd: When I am mocking Vince Kelvin I am obviously mocking one particular guy. However, Vince Kelvin stands for "game" as it is commonly understood. Therefore, by mocking Vince Kelvin I make fun of everyone who does something similar.

If you dress like a clown (or just put on one or two "peacocky" items)
If you cold approach like a retard
If you "plow" when the girl shows she has absolutely no interest in you
If you linger around on the street and prey on girls
If you go to a club to "sarge HBs"
If you collect phone numbers and think they are an achievement
If you "practice approaches"
In general: if you stick to "mainstream game"

...then there is a Vince Kelvin in you!


  1. What these guys don't seem to get is that VK is only an EXTREME version of THEM.

    I have seen many gamers who are JUST AS deluded as VK, and have just as much cognitive dissonance as he has, think that they're saner than VK.

    "Oh, I don't wear fuzzy hats, so I'm not VK"

    -> No dude, you are VK if you believe the same game theories that created the monstrosity known as VK.

    "Oh, well I don't jump around like a retard with students, so I'm not VK"

    -> No dude... If you, like VK use the same cognitive-dissonance mental tactics to HIDE from yourself that you're an utter failure while talking about how alpha you are ---> YOU ARE VK.

    The thing guys don't get about Aaron's critique of VK is... that... the thing on criticism is THE COGNITIVE DISSONANCE MECHANISMS used by VK - and if you're a gamer following roohs, roissy, vin di carlo, flying fuck alpha master 2000 -> YOU ARE USING THE EXACT SAME COGNITIVE DISSONANCE MECHANISMS THAT VK IS USING.

  2. You have some great info. Unfortunately, in your mad desire to criticize the community, you perpetrate some useless myths. I've met you in real life. You are subtly peacocked too. Keyword - subtle.

    Also, it is not like Mystery doesn't know that looks, social status and money are very important. No wonder that freaking psychopath uses all kinds of deception to attain social status and convey wealth. So yes, he knows it and he uses it to his advantage. I agree that the rest of the stuff he perpetrates is pure myth. At that point you don't really need game to get laid with hot girls.

    1. There is a big difference between "peacocking" and following a certain style. If I go to certain night clubs, I fit right in. On the other hand, a guy who "peacocks" does not really know much about fashion, or certain scenes. Instead, he just puts on one or two items (like big watches, goggles, or bracelets).

      I also think that Mystery is aware of the roles of looks, status, and money. However, in his books, he certaily doesn't mention it and reduces success with women to "game."

  3. I follow you on most of what you say. And Vince is clearly a clown.

    But I'm not sure I understand your position on these points:

    If you linger around on the street and prey on girls
    If you go to a club to "sarge HBs"

    Do you think that there is something intrinsically wrong with daygame?
    Personally, I like daygame: girls seem more open during the daytime. Sure, you might be interupting them, but I generally get great responses. And occaisonally laid.

    Do you think that there is something intrinsically wrong with going to clubs to meet girls? Surely not - that's what most of your FR's present.

    1. Wow, you really don't get it...

      He didn't say "if you Pickup chicks in daytime"... He said "prey"... You know like trolling through town and making circles trough town for hours...

      His club comment was around the concept of "sarging"... Not "meeting" or "picked up".

    2. Exactly!

      For an example of "preying", check this thread on my forum: http://www.aaronsleazy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=844

    3. I've dated some really hot girls I picked up while trolling around town. It's called the numbers game. I do it once a month or so with a couple friends and it's a good way to meet new women. Also there's times when I'm shopping or going to work and I'll make small talk with strangers. That happens too. I don't see what's wrong with going out with the intent to get better and approaching women.

      I'm sure you're talking to the socially awkward wanna be pua guy. But in my experience, 99% of guys studying this stuff want a girlfriend, but are nervous, or don't know girls. So how else do you learn?

    4. What if instead of trolling around your city for several dozens of hours, you went to, say, a tango class (provided you like tango). Not only would you have met a lot of girls, with whom you already have something in common with, you'd also have gained a pretty neat skill.

      Do you now get the difference between "doing pickup" and "having a life"?

  4. Lord Kelvin belongs in the same category as Ross J : One can only wonder how they reached the decision to start doing what they do. Strange people do strange things.

  5. Is there something wrong with spending hours in town, taking opportunities to connect with girls?

    I mean, if I've got the time, then why not? If I have the time and the desire to learn seduction, then why should this be a problem?

    1. In addition to the excellent replies you've received, I'd like to point out that if you spend several hours "connecting" with girls, you are surely going to talk to a lot of girls you are not attracted to. Girls sense this, so it's ultimately a waste of time. Saying that this amounts to "building a skill" is nothing but laughable.

    2. But it does. I know from experience, and that of the hundred or so men I've taught that have lost their virginity and found girlfriends they met in Chapters, or Starbucks, or so forth. It takes practice to get good at hitting on chicks. Doesn't it?

    3. I don't say that you shouldn't talk to girls, but preying on dozens of girls in a completely random fashion is a ridiculous approach as it is highly inefficient. Further, it does make you look like a creep. I have heard from guys who did a lot of "street game" that they ended up being known in their neighborhood, and we're talking about very big cities here.

      Focusing on girls you have something in common with and where mutual attraction is a given takes much less time, and doesn't mean that you have to hit on hundreds of girls. The scattershot approach is futile.

  6. Because there is no such thing as "seduction skill". It's only your fear and you (your look, characters, likes&dislikes and lifestyle). And again it's what you want to do. For me - I definetly don't want to go downtown and approach chicks for 5 hours even if I get some numbers (fake) and so on.

    And again if you're cold approaching too much chicks. You get this begger/poll guy vibe. More healthy attidute is to go out, do your stuff and when you spot a girl you like then go find out who she is. But this require a lot of more balls, becuase "you are not in state/warmed up", but even then it's look hell more natural.

    1. What anonymous said

      Plus dude if you have "extra hours to kill"... Why not get a life?!?!??

      Join Yoga classes, dance classes volunteer organizations, cooking class, whatever!!! Go rollerblading?

      Fill up those hours with a LIFE... Dude... Like wtf do you mean extra hours? Plus when you do those other things, you can meet chicks 10x easier in those activities.

    2. Sleazy enough with Kelvin, when are you going to do your post on Roosh? Kelvin is a small piece of pie compared to Roosh & his followers, whom apparently are the next "big thing" and he states that "game" exists because his followers specialize in going to FSU and developing countries and get laid somehow.

    3. DoubleVote on Roosh...

      He's much worse and more damaging because he's not as apparent. Even otherwise skeptical and sane individuals can fall for Roosh.

      Ripping on Kelvin is easy. Even Roosh fans rip on Kelvin.

      Ripping Apart Roosh will do the world more good, coz he gets away with selling game, by saying some common sense shit along with the brainwashing crap.

    4. Regarding Roosh: I've got two articles on Roosh in the pipeline. The reason why this all takes a bit longer than I'd like to is not that I am a slacker, but because I have a life. ;)

      In the meantime, enjoy my piece on Tim Ferriss, who is much worse than Roosh when it comes to promoting bullshit and exploiting the gullibility of guys.

    5. To be fair, Tim Ferris has been ripped many times even on the Roosh forums. So his bullshit has been attempted to be debunked a while back, many times. The reason why Roosh is much more dangerous is because of the way he gives information on certain countries, in like a very filthy way. The guy is a poster child of narcissism, self-centerdness covert sex tourism, manipulation and sociopathy in a very bad way. The stuff that's on the forums there are just disgusting and outrageous. The guy has much more influence on a larger set of confused younger people and encourages a certain brand of egoism, mercantilism, and arrogance that encourages mass self-servitude, racism and a complete dropping of all decent human societal mindsets.

      Roosh and his followers are the new people that sane & logical people are being duped for and dropping & buying in masse. What's worse is that they actually believe their own bullshit.

    6. Roosh and his followers are the new people that sane & logical people are being duped for and dropping & buying in masse. What's worse is that they actually believe their own bullshit.

      I agree with this the most.

      The danger with Roosh is that he dupes the people who don't get duped by other scammers. It's like, even people who are smart enough to not fall for most gurus, end up being scammed by Roosh.

      He's a sneaky clever bastard.

  7. I really didn't bother to post this but apparently even Mark Manson, the supposed sane and realistic person on this entire game scene, actually believes in Roosh's stuff. That one Asian guy who ended up beating one neo-Nazi after another in the Baltics & Eastern Europe? Apparently he is a "Writer" and expert on "international business", god I just feel like punching those people in the face. Sleazy when are you going to do your post on Roosh and his followers?

    1. What, I thought that guy was doing "energy research in the Baltics"?

      I don't have a lot of spare time these days, but the Roosh article is still on my to-do list. Don't worry about it, I'll eventually get to it. I did address some issues with Roosh in a somewhat recent article, too, by the way: http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2012/02/why-indirect-game-is-popular-and-why.html

  8. No he lied he was doing "energy research in the Baltics" to the supposed girls in the Baltics that he met, to trick the girls into not thinking he was a sex tourist and also so he could feel like he was treated like a rockstar in that country by both guys & girls. Where I am, 5.9 Asian guys never in their lives are given any "treatment" let alone the attention of the opposite gender.

  9. There is something which I feel all these PUA gurus have in common, i.e. once you try to make a serious living out of teaching pickup - that is when it all goes serious downhill (even if it wasn't the case earlier).

    I don't know what are Vince's real skills in life, by at his age I seriously doubt he can do much other than teach pickup. I guess the same goes for other guys like Ross Jeffries, David Wygant and many many others.

    I imagine that it is not particularly easy to make a living from it, especially if you are not using scammy marketing, making false claims, teaching bullshit etc. My feeling is that if regular guys were told that you have to get in shape, get good clothes and approach many girls so that you can sleep with one girl (that one too may not be awesome if a serious relationship is what you are looking for) - not many would be particularly keen on doing this whole PUA thing.

    I guess even somewhat legit coaches who dreamed of helping other guys improve their sex lives and make money in the process realize the pinch of this once they start teaching and it all goes downhill from there. Even somewhat legit guys like Mark Manson, 60 seem to feel this.

    I feel the whole industry would be much better if the coaches were people who stuck to their actual day jobs and just taught this whole thing as a side hobby.

    1. I actually Started writing a letter to Aaron and wanted to say this exact same thing (plus a few other points)

      It doesn't matter how well-intentioned you are, if you get the idea that you want to make money off of this stuff, you will eventually end up selling out without even noticing...

      It's very gradual and it's a slippery slope... First you promote one less-than-ideal guy, then another and another... Then you compromise 2% and a bit of fluff, then a little bit more and before you know it you're promoting scammers and selling 20-DVD sets. That's what happened to Paul Janka. He started out with the best of intentions.

      The point is this - forget about making money off of this stuff if you want to be honest... Treat the book sales (coaching fees) almost as a "bonus" that comes out helping guys.

      If you ever get a thought such as "how do I sell more books/coachings" STOP IMMEDIATELY... That thought will lead you down a bad path and you won't even notice.

      I've already seen Aaron fall for some of the traps... He seems to fall for the reciprocity trap... This is where someone is nice to you, promotes you, and then you seem to feel a sense of promoting them back even though they're less than ideal.

      Aaron already links to a few less-than ideal guys, and a lot of it seems to stem from likin those guys on a personal level...

      For example there's this guy selling a book on social anxiety, who's potentially breaking the law by trying to treat and diagnose serious issues without a license or a good legal disclaimer.

      That same guy (who will go unnamed) also has 15 other pieces of additiona over complication bullshit fluff, that is just as unproven and unnecessary as PUA shit... It will fuck some guys up just as much as PUA shit... But Aaron links to him and defends him on the forum coz he likes him as a person... That's how the slippery slope works.

    2. Alek,

      I am aware of this issue. As you may have noticed, some links have disappeared from this blog in recent weeks, and a few more might go as well. I don't keep tabs on those people, so even though I thought they were cool guys when I added a link to their site, some did develop in directions that were more questionable. I do check up on them occasionally, especially when people email me and tell me about this or that shady product.

      Speaking of the "social anxiety" guy: yes, I like him as a person. Also, I think that he has written a pretty good book. I don't share your stance that he is trying to "treat and diagnose" serious issues. His book contains a number of simple exercises, interwoven with narration, and there was nothing bullshitty about it.

    3. His book contains a number of simple exercises, interwoven with narration, and there was nothing bullshitty about it.

      I haven't read his book, I'm not curious enough to buy it in order to check it out.

      I do know however that if he has no formal training it's irresponsible of him to sell stuff on it, because he's just delaying people from going to a qualified professional.

      A lot of stuff that seems "common sense", such as "get social exercises" might actually be damaging for some SA sufferers who will be more screwed up by it. Even seemingly innocuous exercises can be turned into weirdness by SA Sufferers who have a distorted worldview and perception of social reality.

      Remember, the PUA theories and exercises and techniques that screwed the most people up all sounded "common sense" too, and they were all originally invented by well-intended people.

      Also note that this same person says something like "what aaron is teaching you is ONLY THE START, if you ever want to get laid, you must also do [insert new-agey anecdotal theory] or you will never have true success!! I know, coz my anecdotal experience told me so, and you must all do this too!!! Or else!!!

      How is that rhetoric different than PUA rhetoric? The reason I support you is because you don't claim anything different than science does (the mating process has been the same for 20,000 years). Your only difference from the mainstream is that you say you do the steps faster, but you're not introducing new steps.

      -> Anyone who says you must do xyz to get laid/get women.

      -> And we know for a fact there's a ton of guys who never do xyz, but have amazing success...

      -> ...is applying the same rationale that PUAs are (I prefer x, so I'll fearmonger guys into doing it too and add additional steps)

      Every single guy in human history who's not died celibate has followed the steps you describe. Every single one. (though slower in most cases and over months, not days or hours).

      If you support people who claim there are additional steps, it's a slippery slope... It always starts with adding just one additional step... That's how the crazy PUA theories were born. It always starts with just one.


      Don't worry, this is not the start of a debate :) I'm just wrapping my thoughts up on the subject. I won't be mentioning this dude or the overall subject further, and we largely agree on the points about slippery slopes, bonus accidental income etc... etc...

    4. Actually, getting laid is not what his social anxiety book and form are about. I think you just had a glimpse and then drew a quick conclusion.

    5. Mmm, I never said his social anxiety book is about getting laid?

      Only the first part of my comment is about his social anxiety book.

      This is where the second part of the comment begins -> "Also note that this same person says something like"

      This is me saying "and it's not just that he does this SA thing that's problematic, he ALSO has opinions on getting laid that are problematic". I know it's entirely clear I'm starting a new topic in the middle of the comment, so it's partially my fault.


      Not arguing :) just clarifying my last comment on the subject since it was misunderstood.

    6. Hmm.... He has actually been a follower for many years now, and he also likes Minimal Game a lot. So I am not sure your criticism is entirely justified.

      Let's just leave it at that for now.

  10. All this feuding in the community is what's retarded. Aaron Sleazy, you are a part of the community. On Facebook you're friends with all the gurus, you have books, you offer coaching.

    VK gets results. He has an onslaught of girls, and despite the constant yet, no, they are not fatties. While we're on the topic of women, singling out women as fatties is f***ing juvenile and in the same league as the behavior you describe above.

    Hate all you want, but you're a hypocrite.

    1. Alexander,

      I position myself very clearly. What I stand for is a common sense approach to dating and relationships, and not the gimmicky stuff that is so common in the mainstream community. On Facebook, I made it a habit to just confirm every incoming friend request as "Aaron Sleazy". This doesn't mean that I am personally friends with those people.

      My books are much different, and so is the little coaching I offer.

      If you don't think that VK's girls are fatties, then you need to get your eyes checked.

  11. Hypocrite and jealous

  12. I was on I was on seductionmyth.com and I was reading about types.

    My question is...

    Between a handsome man with a symmetrical face, and a man with asymmetrical features who is this woman's type who will she choose?

    1. If the asymmetrical guy happens to be her type, then she will chose him. However, the handsome man will be the "type" of many more women than the less attractive one.


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