Saturday, July 30, 2016

Response to a Concern Troll: Alpha Status vs Socio Economic Status

When I was busy pummeling the PUA industry, trolls and shills were adorably cute. Their comments consisted of one-liners, personal attacks, or exaggerated praise of their master. Of course, their contributions often were in poor English, which indicated outsourcing to some guy in the Third World via sites like ODesk. Bullshit like that was annoying because it meant clicking "spam" over and over. For some time there was an RSD shill who commented "what the fuck is this shit" on several of my posts, which made me chuckle as it was precisely the kind of fake "alpha" posturing a guy like RSD's Jeffy promotes. The more eloquent trolls and shills I addressed in the comment section, which led to some hilarious exchanges.

Now that I occasionally tackle some topics that are more serious than making fun of PUAs who don't get laid, I seem to attract a much different kind of troll. A shining example is "Peter" who claims that Muslims are more "alpha" than German men and thus get all ze German women. His comment originally appeared on my brief post on the main cast of the TV show Entourage.


Here it is in full:
Aaron, of course female hypergamy only applies to things that would have mattered in our distant past, like violence, aggression, muscles, height, dominant personality. IQ doesn't make the cut - it's why women prefer douchebags in the West not doctors or nerds. Arabs, being douchier than the douchiest Westerner, are clearly far more desirable to Western females. 
As for why Arabs attack women, that's just how Alphas act - they go after what they want when they want. They don't bother with courtship. They know very well the German police won't prosecute them. It's just a more extreme version of the kind of thing you've written about doing in nightclubs, Aaron, where you just go up to a girl and take her. We've all admired you for your Alpha boldness in those stories, where you just did not give a shit and showed her whose boss. Trust me, German women are now far more attracted to Arabs after the attacks consolidated their Alpha status. 
Besides, how many of those women's complaints were legit? Women like to make shit up to absolve themselves from blame, we see this in the US all the time. 
Aaron, I know that you're an intellectual and it must irk you that women only respond to factors that mattered before intellectuals existed, and that this makes you less Alpha than a poor, low class Arab immigrant who is able to boldly take women with little frar of German police, but denying the not so pretty reality of Darwinian evolution wont make it go away.

This post had me in stitches. I love it when people think they really, really know something although they are utterly clueless. Dunning-Kruger is a bitch. Hypergamy by definition refers to class, so let's have some fun with Peter.

There are several ways to tear his comment apart. I will focus on empiricism and logic. In the 1970s, Germany took in a great many Muslims from Turkey whose numbers only increased over the years. These days there are roughly three million of them in the country. In their culture there is a tendency for marrying their cousins, which leads to all kinds of problems, and eventually results in a rather negligible contribution to the economy. Overall, they perform incredibly poorly in high school, trade school, and at university. Many achieve great welfare careers, though. It's not at all uncommon that young Muslims of that ethnicity live off welfare in the third generation. Overall, the Turks in Germany probably cost the German taxpayer half a trillion Euros or so in four decades. It's ludicrous.

You can probably guess where this is going. Those people exhibit the same "alpha" qualities Peter attributes to the uncivilized hordes from the Middle East that have been invading Germany. Yet, they are arguably the least attractive sexual partners for Western women. There is only a very small number of German women who engage with Turks of that milieu: white trash that lives off welfare. This is quite easy to explain. In general, women want their partner to be at least of the same socio-economic status (SES), but preferably he should have higher SES. If you are a male fuck-up with no skill or education, barely literate but absolutely unemployable, what kind of woman will you date? What kind of woman would want to be part of your glorious welfare lifestyle? You certainly won't land a female doctor. Instead, your pool are other welfare recipients, which you probably meet while getting drunk in public.

In the case of female welfare queens your options are likewise limited. Anyone with a steady income is unlikely to associate with you, so your best chance will be to stick to your own kind. But now Ali with his IQ of 75 and nine years of formal education is not so unattractive anymore. His competition consists of Kevin who is just as smart as Ali but probably a bigger pussy because he has a somewhat better command of German which means that he got indoctrinated at school to some extent. Ali knows less than 500 words of German and didn't pay any attention to his teachers anyway, so his alpha attitudes remained unchallenged. In that case, I readily believe that young Jacqueline is just as willing to take Ali's dick, if not more so. What else is she going to do anyway? In her line of work Ali is just as successful as Kevin as they both milk the government for everything they can. Jaqueline and Ali are a match made in heaven.

More generally, societies are rather segregated. Your friends and neighbors are very likely to have a similar SES. In many cases you probably either don't know where people of a different SES even hang out, or if you know it, you wouldn't be able to get access because you don't have the amount of time and money that would be required to hang out with them, or you would lack the required connections. A woman wanting to meet a man below her SES, say a middle-class white girl with a university education looking for an unskilled Muslim who lives off welfare and deals drugs, would need to enter an entirely different culture. Even if those two would somehow meet: how on earth, Peter, do you think this would pan out? Do you think she'll introduce such an "alpha" to her friends and family? How thrilled to you think her lawyer father will be if his lovely Octavia tells him, "Oh, don't worry, dad, Muhammad has a great future ahead of him. The government will increase welfare by 2 % next year, and in addition he is busy building a great second income stream via dealing weed and Vicodine."

The only women such guys can get are low-class. There may be the occasional brainwashed lefty who thinks she can rid herself of German Guilt by taking a low-class brute as a partner but if that even happens it is certainly rare. Alpha? Not so much.

What do you think? Let me know in the comments below!

(Also, if you’ve got a comment that is off-topic or only tangentially related to this article, then please post in the most recent Open Thread. Thank you.)

25 comments:

  1. Great post! It reminded me of people claiming that white women love dating black guys. Sure, there are interracial couples. Famous examples include Tiger Woods + bombshell and Seal + supermodel. Both men have of course phenomenal SES. In real life, though, I would say that a black dude would have to work harder for the same kind of girl a white guy could get. Similar to what you wrote, I don't think Jamal from the hood has a shot at getting a white career girl, even if her career consists of being a barista at Starbucks since that requires a 4-year degree nowadays. Keep it up, man!

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  2. Aaron, women are attracted to low class douchebags for sex and love and marry higher social class guys for money when they're older.

    This is so well known by now that I'm shocked you don't know this.

    In the West doctors and lawyers and techies get ugly women. Look at Mark Zuckerberg, one of the highest class guys in America, who got a fat, ugly, Asian wife - the lowest class of woman in America.

    San Francisco and Silicon Valley, with maybe the highest class people in America, is known for its ugly women.

    Douchy bartenders in dive bars in new York living off tips routinely bag women tech millionaires, lawyers, and doctors can only salivate over in their dreams.

    I'm sorry Aaron, it's extremely common for guys to like the idea of Alpha/Beta as long as they can imagine they are the alpha, but once they realize where the truth really leads suddenly they're not so enthusiastic. It's sad.

    The behaviors you analyzed in Entourage, Aaron, are ten times more prevalent in Arabs than Germans or other Europeans. The behaviors you held up for our admiration in Sleazy Stories are ten times more prevalent in Arabs than Europeans.

    Now suddenly it's all about social class when this is pointed out to you and not about alpha behaviors at all.

    Aaron, you lack the intellectual honesty to follow your beliefs wherever they may lead. You are smart enough to know that alpha is true but you can't follow that truth to the end - it's fine as long as you can be the alpha in sleazy stories, but if Arabs take your own behaviors, which you are rightly so proud of, to a higher level then suddenly it's all about social status.

    Aaron, I suspect that ultimately your intellectual honesty will prevail and you will have no choice but to admit that by the standard of the behavior you celebrate in yourself and analyze in shows like Entourage, you and German men have no chance in the true affections of German women when compared with Arab immigrants, and as distinct from marrying for money.




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    1. Today I learnt:
      - Donald Trump has an ugly wife
      - Zuck's wife who is a Harvard-educated doctor belongs to the lowest class in the US, even though Asian women are normally highly desired by men
      - the Bay Area is more "high class" than NYC
      - Entourage depicts "alphas" even though I sketched an argument that they are betas

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    2. Donald Trump has an attractive wife because of his alpha behavior.

      Equally or higher social status men in America, like Zuckerberg, have ugly wives.

      Zucks wife is low class in terms of female desirability - fat, ugly, and Asian. Since when does a Harvard diploma make a woman more desirable? You're talking g like a feminist, Aaron. In the US, Aaron, Asian women are desired by nerds and losers and are known as markers for male loserness. I don't know what it is like in Germany.

      San Francisco is more expensive than NYC, and tech millionaires are probably the highest social class in the US - everyone hears about and uses facebook, twitter, uber, etc - but let's say NYC is just as high class. Point is, Bay Area with all its class has ugly women it's known through the US for this so social class just isn't that important.

      Also, I said low social class bartenders in NYC do better than lawyers, doctors, etc.

      You discussed Alpha/beta behaviors is Entourage - I never said you depicted them as alphas.

      Aaron, it's painful to watch you struggle to avoid admitting the obvious.

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    3. Trump is an "alpha" billionaire who has a very attractive wife. Do you honestly think some Arab loser would be able to get women of a similar caliber? In general, money and status allow you to get hot wives and girlfriends. Zuck could easily have gotten a hotter woman. As an exercise, look up Larry Ellison, Marc Andreessen, or Larry Page, who are all tech billionaires, like Zuck, but have attractive wives.

      The Bay Area lacks women, while there is a surplus of women in NYC. Thus, ceteris partibus, you will do better in NYC. This does not mean that it is impossible to find hot women in Cali.

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    4. I wonder how billionaires deal with choosing a partner though, especially with regards to looks. If we're talking long term, are the most beautiful women the best option to choose? Should a billionaire marry a woman about in the same league looks-wise if he wanted a longer, or at least more honest, marriage? I'm sure not all beautiful women are gold diggers, but when a woman marries a man that she has no physical attraction to just because he's rich, it makes me wonder why the billionaire bothers marrying at all if it's not going to last.

      Hell, Snapchat billionaire Evan Spiegel, by far one of the best looking billionaires, just proposed to ex-model Miranda Kerr, who's now 33 and has a history of gold digging (she was trying to get with Mariah Carey's billionaire husband James Packer when he was single). Not a good decision in my opinion.

      And even though Zuck could have gotten a hotter woman, would it have been wiser to do so? Seems that billionaires options limit to a well-educated woman (beautiful and educated ones like Ivanka Trump may or may not be as much of a rarity for billionaires though) or a very beautiful woman of whatever "entertainment" occupation, with the very strong likelihood that those women are mentally unfit for marriage, insecurities and such.

      Of course that makes me ask a more unrelated question, why get married as a billionaire? Tradition? If you're one of the "new money" tech guys, you have all the power you could want in a relationship and you're free from strict tradition like the old money in the South or East of the US. I'm surprised more don't live it up like Felix Dennis.

      Sorry if this was rambling, haven't slept all night due to homework.

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    5. Peter you are a prime example of someone who reads way too much blogs on internet without experiencing the real world. I could go on and on about why you are wrong (internet dating surveys demonstrate that women like white men, black men, hispanic men followed by middle eastern men and asian men) but Ill give you an exercise instead. Open up facebook and then open up your friends, open tabs of 20 of the prettiest girls you have on your facebook and let me know if they are all dating/hanging out with ALPHA muslim men lol.

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    6. Connor, it's actually pretty simple. A billionaire can get the 0.1% out of the 0.1%.

      Your generalizations apply to the 1% (top 1% most beatiful girls)... If they have looks, they might not have much else, sure. But he can get the 0.1% out of those... I.e the girls who are beatiful AND smart and driven and educated and (insert other character traits).

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    7. Just thought I'd add some Online Dating statistics to add objectivity to this discussion:

      http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/

      http://blog.pof.com/2014/01/most-desirable-singles-of-2014/

      These aren't statistics for how much sex everyone is getting, but of course replies which are more likely to lead to sex in an Online Dating environment.

      -On the whole, Middle-Eastern men are less likely than white males, and most other races, to receive a message back from all female races, except for female Native Americans.

      -Men who earn between $100,000 and $150,000/year receive 42% more messages.

      Both features are self reported, which would normally add bias, but in all high volume self reported studies there is also a base percentage of how many people are honest, which has always been found to be well above 50%.

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    8. Mynott, would you happen to have sources available for those claims? If true, I wonder about half-Asians and the like. Do they fit anywhere advantageous to dating and mating?

      Also, how does one figure out where one stands in regards to class and socioeconomics? Is there a handy-dandy chart online?

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    9. SES should be fairly obvious. A crude taxonomy is as follows:
      living off welfare -> underclass
      unskilled labor -> lower working class
      blue collar/trades -> working class/lower middle class
      white collar/degree -> (lower) middle class
      professional degree -> (upper) middle class
      old money/work more of a hobby than a necessity -> upper class

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    10. Hey Aaron, big fan. Question; my pipedream would be to bed IG model-hot chicks...I'm good looking as told by girls at my work (casino), not ripped 24yrold barback working towards being a bartender at the casino I work at...and an aspiring musician. Is it pretty much only upperclass men that has access to these kinds of women?

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    11. Your problem is getting access to those women, and giving them a reason to hang out with you. You can probably see why a lack of money and resources won't do you any favors.

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  3. For some reason idea that bravado attracts women is inherently appealing. You can see it among many younger guys and inexperienced PUA followers.

    Of course extension of such thinking is the idea that Arab men will somehow outcompete Germans on sexual market.

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    1. Yeah hes just reading too many PUA or MGTOW blogs and thinks the only thing he has to do is being super duper uber ALPHA KING and he'll get all the women he wants. News flash last time I checked I have never met a hot girl getting all anxious and horny thinking about someone on the doll.

      Its annoying too because they use the logic that because x y guy who is broke gets heaps of hot girls means women fuck broke guys and marry beta rich men, when the reality is those rare cases a man who is lacking one the fundamentals (like economic status) he makes up for it in other ways. Like be really good looking or being fucking sick on the guitar and do local shows and sleep with groupies etc.

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    2. Peter, just from a pure physical/ appearance stand point - Most refugees are in a very poor health condition. As a doorman I talk to a lot of them every weekend. Basically all of the guys I interact with have very poor teeth for example.

      Of course they dress and smell bad due to their situation. That is fixable. Something I also noticed is that they average a pretty small height (also not very attractive).

      One might argue that they'll fix their physical appearance once they get a job and improve their economic status.

      Unfortunately, a lot of them have a very poor educational background and aren't even able to read their mother tongue. Believe me I know that form my own experience. The German education economist Prof. Ludger WoeƟmann estimates the numbers are as high as two thirds (German text: http://bit.ly/1m3d5I7).

      Therefore, it is very unlikely that most of them will improve their economic and physical situation in a significant way.

      I don't see how this is attractive to any girl on earth. Yes, I have friends who are Muslims who have beautiful 'white' girlfriends. But all of them grew up in Germany, are very well integrated, and are on their way to a good career. Most of them also let go of practicing their Muslim faith.

      And regarding your 'bartender douche' argument - Yes, in the club I'm working a lot of bartender boys and girls regular hook up with guests. Even more have fun in the sack with their work mates. But you know the basics still apply. If you work in a good club you have an outgoing personality, know how to flirt..and (kind of biggie) are very good looking in terms of fitness, height, as well as facial features.

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  4. Peter did bring up the point that it's wise to differentiate short-term vs long-term mating. Hypergamy applies a lot more to long-term mating than it does to short-term.

    A low-class but handsome 20-something bodybuilder that lives off of welware, can actually bang quite a lot of hot chicks, including girls who are from high-class families (when in their casual sex and experimentation phase). They won't marry him later on, but they sure will bang him when theyre 21. They won't introduce him to their families, but they'll bang him on the beach no prob...

    I'm not sure how this differentation applies to immigrants (it might not apply at all). I have no opinion on this subject in particular (immigrants banging natives), because I have no experience with it.

    But (on a more general note) it is always good to differentiate long-term vs short-term, as the dynamics are completely different, sometimes even opposite. So it is good to specify what is being talked about. Perhaps even to say "it's exactly the same in both contexts"



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    1. That's a good point! I would say that for short-term attraction women are slightly more inclined to consider men below their own SES, but I don't think that women are willing to dive right into the dregs of society in an attempt to find the most alpha of the underclass.

      That being said, there is the obvious exception of female sex tourism, i.e. white women well past their prime who go slumming in Africa. Now that large numbers of those men are in Central Europe you can certainly make the observation that those men actively chase after menopausal women. For instance, there are clubs in larger cities in Sweden where you will find two demographics: women well past 30 and immigrants from Africa or the Middle East. It is quite plausible to assume that many of those don't have been granted permanent residency. Should they manage to get a fat white 40+ year-old to marry them, then that problem would be solved and they could live off the Swedish welfare system for the rest of their life.

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  5. Problem is Peter assumes every 'attractive' girl has a low IQ and just likes to get shitfaced on the weekends. While that may be the case for a lot of girls, there are a lot of high quality women this doesn't apply to.

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  6. Peter is not living in reality. We had two Night clubs, which went bankrupt the moment they let men from middle east inside (Most clubs don't let them in, because they know, that it will ruin them). Those guys have their own venues and we (white guys and girls) NEVER go to those clubs and bars. I know two girls with middle east boyfriends and both of them speak perfectly german and live the average german lifestyle (they don't follow any religion, too).

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  7. If and When the muslim hordes finish their guerrilla and ethnic replacement phase and start a full scale war of conquest, then hell yeah, the women will flock tho these alpha conquerors, as survival instinct has decreed in other instances of invasion in the past.

    Until then, most western women won't touch them with a pole.

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    1. This idea that women will gladly submit to a conquering army through their honest desire is again indicative of PUA evo-psych theories that aren't backed by real world evidence.

      Look at the Yazidi women in Syria, for example. Thousands of them have been taken into sexual slavery after their men have been mass murdered and genocided, are they now soaking wet yearning for that hot ISIS dick and flocking en masse to ISIS controlled territories in order to submit to those conquering ISIS alpha males? No, they are not. And those women that are rescued from this brutal fate will likely suffer a lifetime of pain and emotional damage, and most will never recover from it, and those that do will likely only recover after years and years of extensive therapy.

      The fact that women enjoy consensual submissive sex and rape fantasies is NOT therefore evidence that they would therefore enjoy the actual reality of being taken into sexual slavery and having every male member of their family brutally murdered. Do you really believe that white women, after seeing all their male relatives brutally murdered, are then going to willfully submit and actually ENJOY being the sex slave of a Muslim conqueror?

      In antiquity, women were taken into sexual slavery after their men were killed by an invading army, simply by force, and not because they suddenly found themselves soaking wet when the conquerors arrived and their fathers, brothers, sons and husbands were murdered. It was brutal and traumatic for them then and it is brutal and traumatic for them now. It will always be that way.

      Women are not binary computers that instantly get aroused when you insert "conquering" and "aggression". Despite what the PUAs think, though most of them are submissives that enjoy consensual non-consent, actual rape is one of their biggest fears and the experience of being a real life sex slave for a conquering army would utterly destroy almost all of them emotionally.

      Here's a photo of some Yazidi sex slaves contemplating how much they love that hot ISIS dick and their ongoing rape:

      http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03029/Yazidi_3029828b.jpg

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    2. Sigh... how is the order in this type of reply? Saying "I agree with you" first, or last? I think I'm going to start with it.

      I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH YOU.

      First, I had a brief affair with PUA teachings (all torrented, not one dime spent, except for a tiny portion of the internet bill, I guess), but I got over it several years ago.

      Second, my comment had certain sarcastic undertones, you clearly missed them.

      Third, even in real historical instances where this has occurred, surely the "consensual factor" has been small, and I definitely implied that. "Survival instinct" sure is a giveaway?

      Fourth, as much as the "consensual factor" was surely small, it's not implausible that more "benign" conquerors got a better deal with the conquered women than brutal ones did. When I say "benign" I mean, for example, those who avoided child-killing, full-blown ethnic cleansing, those who limited the killing to the battlefield and away from the wives' eyes, etc.

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  8. Peter, your entire argument rests upon this internet-PUA blanket term of "alpha" that you are using to include any and all behaviors that could be considered "aggressive", which is a false equivalence. This comes from the PUA obsession with evo-psych and their simplistic conclusions, which basically amount to BE SUPER AGGRESSIVE ALPHA = GET MAD PUSSY BRO. In reality there are more variables in behavior that constitute an "alpha male", including confidence, non-neediness, emotional stability, abundance (and the resulting lack of need for validation that arises), etc. You ignore the complex reality and instead believe in a bizarro world where you simply be hyper aggressive and then women want to fuck you. From the moment you interact with a woman she is assessing your reactions to her behavior and the state from which you make your decisions, simply being aggressive is not enough.

    If you really believe that the behavior of aggressive underclass Arabs is enough to get any white woman wet because they are "aggressive" and therefore "alpha", you are demonstrating a lack of engagement with reality that is bordering on extreme. If this were the case, then any loser could just go out and start groping women and they'd instantly start throwing themselves at him, wouldn't they?

    You should go out and try that, go out and start being "aggressive" to really hot white women and see where that gets you. The moment you start doing that they will begin their assessment of you, and because you are coming from a place of neediness and general weirdness they will very quickly realize that you are not mate material and then harshly next you likely before calling the police or getting you kicked out of the bar.

    Arabs may be aggressive, but they are not "alpha" because of that. They are needy betas that have no understanding of women whatsoever, who grope and jeer at them, and then get angry when their advances are rebuked. Aggression is a good quality for attracting women if it is done intelligently and by a person that is not needy of validation.

    The man that interacts with a woman in a confident way, is not needy, and who intelligently assesses the situation and THEN decides to dominantly escalate is NOT therefore automatically equal to the man who blindly and dimly gropes women on the street, because both are examples of "aggression" and therefore "alpha". You are living in a world of labels that is detached from reality.

    If Arabs were so "alpha", why would they need to commit so much rape? If white women were just throwing themselves at them, they wouldn't need to form thousand man mobs and attack women at New Year's celebrations. Your hypothesis is also not supported by the OKCupid data which shows that white women have an overwhelming preference for white men. Most Arabs don't even get a response from white women, even on a website that is basically designed to facilitate casual sex.

    Your appeals to Darwinian evolution show only that you believe in pseudo-scientific PUA theories of evo-psych that aren't backed up by any actual real world evidence.

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  9. It's funny that everyone keeps getting all esoteric on Peter, when it's really not very complicated. The Muslims are not going to have any shot with attractive German women, because they're short and ugly. Nothing else to it. Most Arab men are extremely ugly. This is even more true of immigrants. The few good looking Arab men who exist, are all happy in their hometowns, surrounded by comfort and good options. Any Arab man who goes into Germany with the gleam of welfare in his eye, is likely to be overweight and have a bad body on top of being an ugly manlet. I'd say being poor and stupid are the least of these guys problems. Women will bang poor, stupid guys - if they're good looking. These migrants are the worst of all worlds. Ugly, short, fat, poor, stupid, and poorly styled. No woman will ever learn how "alpha" a man is, when she's repulsed by his very appearance.

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